I'm Tired of Bad Calls being accepted
05/14/2017 1:23:18 AM
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I have the pictures to prove that our hurdler did not interfere with any other runner. The Games Committee from the Midwest 4A and the coaches from Mount Tabor should be ashamed. I don't want any of you telling me to respect the bad call or accept it; I reject those calls. Every wrong has the ability to be corrected and this should be corrected. The accuser didn't even have to prove that a violation had occurred. I'm sick of this nonsense.
I have the pictures to prove that our hurdler did not interfere with any other runner. The Games Committee from the Midwest 4A and the coaches from Mount Tabor should be ashamed. I don't want any of you telling me to respect the bad call or accept it; I reject those calls. Every wrong has the ability to be corrected and this should be corrected. The accuser didn't even have to prove that a violation had occurred. I'm sick of this nonsense.
05/14/2017 9:33:34 AM
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which race? girls? boys? 100m? 300m? videos are posted so I was wondering so I could watch and see what happened
which race? girls? boys? 100m? 300m? videos are posted so I was wondering so I could watch and see what happened
05/14/2017 10:07:25 AM
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Believe he's talking about the Boys 300mH Heat 2
Believe he's talking about the Boys 300mH Heat 2
05/14/2017 11:00:47 AM
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@gbocmusic Coach Gray, It was not "the coaches" from Mount Tabor. I, Patrick Cromwell, made the initial call. Do not associate all of our coaching staff. Please know I was placed on the games committee. I did not ask for this position. Please realize there were four other coaches on this committee from different schools. It was a unanimous decision. The call does not affect how talented your athlete is or the perseverance he demonstrated in his race. I believe I followed the rule book. I was professional. It was not personal. The decision was unanimously agreed upon by five coaches from different schools. I hope you will push the NCHSAA to recruit, pay, and officiate our Regional & State Championship meets without using coaches from the schools participating. We all work hard and have family and lives that get neglected volunteering our time on a ten hour Saturday. I will not respond further on this matter. Coach Cromwell Patrick Cromwell Mount Tabor High School Boys Head Coach
@gbocmusic
Coach Gray,

It was not "the coaches" from Mount Tabor. I, Patrick Cromwell, made the initial call. Do not associate all of our coaching staff. Please know I was placed on the games committee. I did not ask for this position. Please realize there were four other coaches on this committee from different schools. It was a unanimous decision. The call does not affect how talented your athlete is or the perseverance he demonstrated in his race.
I believe I followed the rule book. I was professional. It was not personal. The decision was unanimously agreed upon by five coaches from different schools.

I hope you will push the NCHSAA to recruit, pay, and officiate our Regional & State Championship meets without using coaches from the schools participating. We all work hard and have family and lives that get neglected volunteering our time on a ten hour Saturday. I will not respond further on this matter.

Coach Cromwell

Patrick Cromwell
Mount Tabor High School
Boys Head Coach
05/14/2017 1:11:25 PM
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The questions that needs to be answered... Was the evidence presented at the time the appeal was made? Does the evidence presented supports the claim that the disqualification was unfair and a "bad call"? If yes, then an injustice was done to a young athlete. If not, then there is no need to make this claim. We can argue all day about the issues with the system, the issues with having coaches being judges in major meets, etc, but it is what we have available. Ultimately, everyone in that role needs to be knowledgeable and accountable for their actions and decisions.
The questions that needs to be answered...

Was the evidence presented at the time the appeal was made?

Does the evidence presented supports the claim that the disqualification was unfair and a "bad call"?

If yes, then an injustice was done to a young athlete.

If not, then there is no need to make this claim.

We can argue all day about the issues with the system, the issues with having coaches being judges in major meets, etc, but it is what we have available.

Ultimately, everyone in that role needs to be knowledgeable and accountable for their actions and decisions.
05/14/2017 2:05:36 PM
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@TXCT I don't care how many people agreed to it. They were all wrong.
@TXCT I don't care how many people agreed to it. They were all wrong.
05/14/2017 2:36:36 PM
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Of course they were wrong. The officials are always wrong. I've timed many meets this spring and just a rough number, at least 30 dq's and I can tell you that a minimum of 75% of those were protested in one form or another and the athletes where NEVER at fault. It was always the official. I don't know what happened in this case nor do I care. What I do know is this, it ok to disagree with a decision but the way coaches, athletes and parents go about it is sad. Yelling, screaming, nasty posts...... it's ridiculous. What I would like to know is and I'm assuming the nice man who started this post is a coach, if you are a coach, where you officiating or helping out anywhere? Were you randomly assigned an officiating spot? What typically happens is there are no volunteer officials so the meet director just assigns people places. Doesn't ask mind you. Just assigns the duties. IS THAT FAIR? I cannot agree more that icoaches officiating at a regional or the state meet is preposterous. However it's been this way for over 30yrs and it is unfortunately most likely gonna stay that way.
Of course they were wrong. The officials are always wrong. I've timed many meets this spring and just a rough number, at least 30 dq's and I can tell you that a minimum of 75% of those were protested in one form or another and the athletes where NEVER at fault. It was always the official.

I don't know what happened in this case nor do I care. What I do know is this, it ok to disagree with a decision but the way coaches, athletes and parents go about it is sad. Yelling, screaming, nasty posts...... it's ridiculous. What I would like to know is and I'm assuming the nice man who started this post is a coach, if you are a coach, where you officiating or helping out anywhere? Were you randomly assigned an officiating spot? What typically happens is there are no volunteer officials so the meet director just assigns people places. Doesn't ask mind you. Just assigns the duties. IS THAT FAIR?

I cannot agree more that icoaches officiating at a regional or the state meet is preposterous. However it's been this way for over 30yrs and it is unfortunately most likely gonna stay that way.
05/14/2017 3:34:19 PM
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If you watch the video, the runner in Lane 3 (full disclosure, he is my athlete) was affected by hurdles being knocked into his lane, would it have been fair to him to not qualify because someone else sent hurdles into his lane and affected his race? At the time I was the ONLY coach for my school at the meet and I couldn't watch most of the race because we were busy clerking in athletes (which I volunteered to do AFTER the meet had started when they announced they needed help). As for just saying all the coaches are wrong that were on the games committee, that is to me calling their integrity into question which I think is absolutely ridiculous knowing what coaches were selected for the games committee.
If you watch the video, the runner in Lane 3 (full disclosure, he is my athlete) was affected by hurdles being knocked into his lane, would it have been fair to him to not qualify because someone else sent hurdles into his lane and affected his race? At the time I was the ONLY coach for my school at the meet and I couldn't watch most of the race because we were busy clerking in athletes (which I volunteered to do AFTER the meet had started when they announced they needed help).

As for just saying all the coaches are wrong that were on the games committee, that is to me calling their integrity into question which I think is absolutely ridiculous knowing what coaches were selected for the games committee.
05/15/2017 9:18:14 AM
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We blame coaches for making bad calls and it is a completely legitimate complaint. Some DQs should never be called. Coaches are coaches..., they are not independent, unaffiliated officials. Yes, I know some are certified officials, but even if you are a certified official you shouldn't officiate a meet your athletes are in. I do not think coaches made bad calls on purpose. I think coaches are doing the best they can do under the circumstances. Coaches that are working as officials at Regionals & States are there to coach 1st and officiate 2nd. Coaches "should" be able to go to these meets to coach and not have to officiate. We say it all the time....football coaches do not have to make calls in their games, baseball coaches do not get to call strikes and balls in their games..., that would be crazy!!! Why do we have to do it? Coaches are going to get caught up in watching a race, they are going to be excited about their athletes competing or athletes they know competing and at some point during their officiating duties, they are going to lose focus of officiating. This is when they are going to miss an infraction OR(often the case) only see part of what happens and make a call that shouldn't be made. This past weekend while working an exchange zone, I had another official ask me if I thought the runners were out of the zone.., I didn't think so, but it was really close. That official seriously considered making the call as an infraction. I convinced him that if it was so close that we had to question each other and he wasn't 100% sure, then he really didn't need to make that call. I have personally seen an official (Coach) be told of an infraction by a non official (coach) and the official raised the red flag. These calls are often made and shouldn't be. These coaches/officials are not prepared and often not knowledgeable enough make these decisions that have a huge impact on our athletes. I looked around the track this past weekend and there were at least 2 coaches working as umpires the entire day that had only been coaching track 1 year and with no prior experience in track. I tip my hat to them for doing the job, but that is not who we need officiating a championship meet! And before someone says, "why don't you officiate if you are going to complain"., 1- I am not really complaining about their calls, I am complaining that these coaches are put in this position by the NCHSAA. 2- I do officiate every single meet my athletes compete in. I often officiate meets that I do not even have athletes in. Independent, unaffiliated officials would not influenced by coaches and they will have no real interest in the individuals in the events and would be able to focus on the task of officiating. HERE IS THE PROBLEM....the NCHSAA does not hire officials for our regionals and state championships and they sure do not give enough money to the regional host schools to hire certified or independent officials. The burden is on the coaches and it shouldn't be. And I am tired of everyone saying that is the way it has always been done and being OK with it. Yes, that is the way it has always been done, but that doesn't make it right!!
We blame coaches for making bad calls and it is a completely legitimate complaint. Some DQs should never be called. Coaches are coaches..., they are not independent, unaffiliated officials. Yes, I know some are certified officials, but even if you are a certified official you shouldn't officiate a meet your athletes are in.
I do not think coaches made bad calls on purpose. I think coaches are doing the best they can do under the circumstances. Coaches that are working as officials at Regionals & States are there to coach 1st and officiate 2nd. Coaches "should" be able to go to these meets to coach and not have to officiate. We say it all the time....football coaches do not have to make calls in their games, baseball coaches do not get to call strikes and balls in their games..., that would be crazy!!! Why do we have to do it? Coaches are going to get caught up in watching a race, they are going to be excited about their athletes competing or athletes they know competing and at some point during their officiating duties, they are going to lose focus of officiating. This is when they are going to miss an infraction OR(often the case) only see part of what happens and make a call that shouldn't be made. This past weekend while working an exchange zone, I had another official ask me if I thought the runners were out of the zone.., I didn't think so, but it was really close. That official seriously considered making the call as an infraction. I convinced him that if it was so close that we had to question each other and he wasn't 100% sure, then he really didn't need to make that call. I have personally seen an official (Coach) be told of an infraction by a non official (coach) and the official raised the red flag. These calls are often made and shouldn't be. These coaches/officials are not prepared and often not knowledgeable enough make these decisions that have a huge impact on our athletes. I looked around the track this past weekend and there were at least 2 coaches working as umpires the entire day that had only been coaching track 1 year and with no prior experience in track. I tip my hat to them for doing the job, but that is not who we need officiating a championship meet!
And before someone says, "why don't you officiate if you are going to complain"., 1- I am not really complaining about their calls, I am complaining that these coaches are put in this position by the NCHSAA. 2- I do officiate every single meet my athletes compete in. I often officiate meets that I do not even have athletes in.
Independent, unaffiliated officials would not influenced by coaches and they will have no real interest in the individuals in the events and would be able to focus on the task of officiating.
HERE IS THE PROBLEM....the NCHSAA does not hire officials for our regionals and state championships and they sure do not give enough money to the regional host schools to hire certified or independent officials. The burden is on the coaches and it shouldn't be.
And I am tired of everyone saying that is the way it has always been done and being OK with it. Yes, that is the way it has always been done, but that doesn't make it right!!
05/15/2017 3:30:40 PM
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Doesn't the rulebook explicitly state that you can only use photos or video that were explicitly designated as being for officiating purposes in evaluating protests? As a practical matter, no such designation is ever made prior to the meet, so you can never use video evidence. The games committee exists to evaluate the officials' reports, and determine if the rule was applied appropriately based on the information reported. If there was only one umpire who saw an infraction, then by definition that person's judgement of what they saw is supposed to carry the day. So the original post saying that there was video proof, and the later poster who asked if the committee ever looked at the evidence, are both completely wrong as a matter of rule. They aren't allowed to look at the video! The rest of this thread I think has it right - get umpires who aren't coaches, and who don't have other priorities during the meet. I know I get caught up in the meet when I'm supposed to be officiating, and I'm sure that is common. (I watched someone "win" a state championship in the 800 after cutting immediately from lane 8 to lane 5 at the gun, and there were no umpires on that turn looking at the track.) I really doubt there are coaches taking advantage of the official's role to help their team or hurt others - I think it is much more likely a coach gives athletes the benefit of the doubt instead of calling what they see, because they don't want to be in the position of disqualiying someone else's athlete. And that in itself is a problem - if you overlook an infraction, you've penalized every other athlete in the event.
Doesn't the rulebook explicitly state that you can only use photos or video that were explicitly designated as being for officiating purposes in evaluating protests? As a practical matter, no such designation is ever made prior to the meet, so you can never use video evidence. The games committee exists to evaluate the officials' reports, and determine if the rule was applied appropriately based on the information reported. If there was only one umpire who saw an infraction, then by definition that person's judgement of what they saw is supposed to carry the day.
So the original post saying that there was video proof, and the later poster who asked if the committee ever looked at the evidence, are both completely wrong as a matter of rule. They aren't allowed to look at the video!
The rest of this thread I think has it right - get umpires who aren't coaches, and who don't have other priorities during the meet. I know I get caught up in the meet when I'm supposed to be officiating, and I'm sure that is common. (I watched someone "win" a state championship in the 800 after cutting immediately from lane 8 to lane 5 at the gun, and there were no umpires on that turn looking at the track.) I really doubt there are coaches taking advantage of the official's role to help their team or hurt others - I think it is much more likely a coach gives athletes the benefit of the doubt instead of calling what they see, because they don't want to be in the position of disqualiying someone else's athlete. And that in itself is a problem - if you overlook an infraction, you've penalized every other athlete in the event.
05/15/2017 4:36:54 PM
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[quote=gbocmusic]@TXCT I don't care how many people agreed to it. They were all wrong.[/quote] @gbocmusic Coach Gray, actually they got it right. I was front row center (as always) when your runner clipped the hurdle and sent it flying. (Please note, his hurdles all the way around were the self-adjusting hurdles, not the rockers we had in the the other six lanes.) When it happened, I was looking for an umpire to make the call -- of which, you were one of the umpires randomly assigned in this meet (not just for the relays exchange zones). Coach Cromwell accurately reported that a hurdle was knocked into another lane and another participant had to adjust to not get hit by the hurdle. Everyone is looking for the athlete in lane 3; however, the athlete that had to adjust was in lane 2. The meet referee made the decision to disqualify your athlete, not the umpire. Upon protest by your head coach, Coach Gray, the games committee upheld the DQ. That is how the system works. If I were you, I would be relieved that no umpire made a call on the hand fighting your other athlete participated in during the last 20m of the girls 800m. I would have flagged both individuals, which would have been a shame since they were 1st and 2nd with no one else near them. Ed. Teasley, I
gbocmusic wrote:
@TXCT I don't care how many people agreed to it. They were all wrong.


@gbocmusic Coach Gray, actually they got it right. I was front row center (as always) when your runner clipped the hurdle and sent it flying. (Please note, his hurdles all the way around were the self-adjusting hurdles, not the rockers we had in the the other six lanes.) When it happened, I was looking for an umpire to make the call -- of which, you were one of the umpires randomly assigned in this meet (not just for the relays exchange zones). Coach Cromwell accurately reported that a hurdle was knocked into another lane and another participant had to adjust to not get hit by the hurdle. Everyone is looking for the athlete in lane 3; however, the athlete that had to adjust was in lane 2. The meet referee made the decision to disqualify your athlete, not the umpire. Upon protest by your head coach, Coach Gray, the games committee upheld the DQ. That is how the system works.

If I were you, I would be relieved that no umpire made a call on the hand fighting your other athlete participated in during the last 20m of the girls 800m. I would have flagged both individuals, which would have been a shame since they were 1st and 2nd with no one else near them.

Ed. Teasley, I
05/16/2017 9:17:47 AM
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@gbocmusic From the accounts on this forum, it appears that proper procedures were followed. If you do not agree with the interpretation of the rules by the referee and the protest committee, that does not mean it is a "bad" call. A disagreement over the interpretation by a group of people is not sufficient reason to publicly disparage them and call their integrity into question. A temper tantrum doesn't really help your argument.
@gbocmusic

From the accounts on this forum, it appears that proper procedures were followed. If you do not agree with the interpretation of the rules by the referee and the protest committee, that does not mean it is a "bad" call. A disagreement over the interpretation by a group of people is not sufficient reason to publicly disparage them and call their integrity into question. A temper tantrum doesn't really help your argument.
05/16/2017 10:04:47 AM
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@runnercoach64 I was an official and yes I was at my duty. You don't know what happen and yet you try to attack my character in a general statement. It is my athlete hurting, I have a right to disagree in anyway I please, but I didn't use profanity or disrespect. Tough situations are no reason to accept misinterpretation of rules or mistaken calls. They happen and we have a right to protest. If any of you think that public protest is wrong, then, you all have a problem. If I made a call as serious as keeping a competitor out of a championship event, I would feel horrible and would expect public correction. That is the nature of officiating.
@runnercoach64 I was an official and yes I was at my duty. You don't know what happen and yet you try to attack my character in a general statement. It is my athlete hurting, I have a right to disagree in anyway I please, but I didn't use profanity or disrespect. Tough situations are no reason to accept misinterpretation of rules or mistaken calls. They happen and we have a right to protest. If any of you think that public protest is wrong, then, you all have a problem. If I made a call as serious as keeping a competitor out of a championship event, I would feel horrible and would expect public correction. That is the nature of officiating.
05/16/2017 10:07:06 AM
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@egijr Show me proof the hurdle left the lane and entered you athletes lane, and I'll admit my wrong.
@egijr Show me proof the hurdle left the lane and entered you athletes lane, and I'll admit my wrong.
05/16/2017 10:07:16 AM
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@egijr Show me proof the hurdle left the lane and entered you athletes lane, and I'll admit my wrong.
@egijr Show me proof the hurdle left the lane and entered you athletes lane, and I'll admit my wrong.
05/16/2017 10:07:18 AM
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@egijr Show me proof the hurdle left the lane and entered you athletes lane, and I'll admit my wrong.
@egijr Show me proof the hurdle left the lane and entered you athletes lane, and I'll admit my wrong.
05/16/2017 10:14:00 AM
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@coach_eazy I have watched the video over and over, freezed the frame and took pictures. As for the hand fight they would have seen the other athlete elbow first, so I have no worries about that one. If someone shows me one photo of the hurdle going out of the lane, I will admit my wrong. The state made a good judgement based on a different infraction.
@coach_eazy I have watched the video over and over, freezed the frame and took pictures. As for the hand fight they would have seen the other athlete elbow first, so I have no worries about that one. If someone shows me one photo of the hurdle going out of the lane, I will admit my wrong. The state made a good judgement based on a different infraction.
05/16/2017 10:21:17 AM
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@PolkCounty I offered pictures, purely objective.
@PolkCounty I offered pictures, purely objective.
05/16/2017 10:40:58 AM
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I have absolutely no dog in this fight but have been reading along. So I went to look up the video in question: http://nc.milesplit.com/videos/212913 If you watch and pause at the 35 second mark you can see the hurdle in question that was knocked over. It is sitting on the line between lanes 3 and 2 right in the landing zone for coming off the hurdles. A second later you can see the runner in lane 2 come back on screen and is not in his normal stride. Amazing run by the kid to come back after falling, commend him for not giving up. Unfortunate that he was disqualified but it does appear correct call was made. That said, yes, I'd love to see outside officials come in for state meets. Until that time, I'm going to do the best job I can with the training I have gone through and hold other coaches to that same standard.
I have absolutely no dog in this fight but have been reading along. So I went to look up the video in question: http://nc.milesplit.com/videos/212913

If you watch and pause at the 35 second mark you can see the hurdle in question that was knocked over. It is sitting on the line between lanes 3 and 2 right in the landing zone for coming off the hurdles. A second later you can see the runner in lane 2 come back on screen and is not in his normal stride.

Amazing run by the kid to come back after falling, commend him for not giving up. Unfortunate that he was disqualified but it does appear correct call was made.

That said, yes, I'd love to see outside officials come in for state meets. Until that time, I'm going to do the best job I can with the training I have gone through and hold other coaches to that same standard.
05/16/2017 7:14:30 PM
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@gbocmusic First I applaude you for working as an official at the meet and I truly am sorry your athlete was DQ'd and I applaud you for lobbying for your athlete but it appears from what I have seen and read that the correct call was made. Yes you do have the right to question calls in any manner you wish but this post appears more like a temper tantrum to me and that is what I thought I was conveying in my previous post. It appears that you feel you have the right to attack people but also reserve the right to not listen to what they have to say...... you can't have it both ways. Sorry but in my opinion you don't have the right to tell anyone they should be ashamed for a call they made. Again ITS OKAY TO DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE but I don't feel it was done in the proper manner. Just my ooonion. Here is a question for you, what would your response be if the tables were turned? Meaning if your athlete had been in the other lane and had been interfered with, what would your argument be?
@gbocmusic First I applaude you for working as an official at the meet and I truly am sorry your athlete was DQ'd and I applaud you for lobbying for your athlete but it appears from what I have seen and read that the correct call was made. Yes you do have the right to question calls in any manner you wish but this post appears more like a temper tantrum to me and that is what I thought I was conveying in my previous post. It appears that you feel you have the right to attack people but also reserve the right to not listen to what they have to say...... you can't have it both ways. Sorry but in my opinion you don't have the right to tell anyone they should be ashamed for a call they made. Again ITS OKAY TO DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE but I don't feel it was done in the proper manner. Just my ooonion.

Here is a question for you, what would your response be if the tables were turned? Meaning if your athlete had been in the other lane and had been interfered with, what would your argument be?

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