Royals High School Twilight Invitational 2015
09/13/2015 10:50:47 PM
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Anybody now about this course seems fast based on times from mcalpine.
Anybody now about this course seems fast based on times from mcalpine.
09/14/2015 5:45:29 AM
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@Ajtrack2014 Meet management says it's exactly 4900 meters, which puts it right on the cutoff for being a 5K for us. It's also totally flat, although it is twisty. I'm going to run a comparison today to see just how fast the times are before I decide whether to make it a 3 Mile or a 5K. At first glance, it appears that the top few girls were REALLY fast, but there doesn't seem to have been as much of an effect in the boys' race.
@Ajtrack2014 Meet management says it's exactly 4900 meters, which puts it right on the cutoff for being a 5K for us. It's also totally flat, although it is twisty. I'm going to run a comparison today to see just how fast the times are before I decide whether to make it a 3 Mile or a 5K. At first glance, it appears that the top few girls were REALLY fast, but there doesn't seem to have been as much of an effect in the boys' race.
09/14/2015 9:02:54 AM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR though meet management may say 4900m, GPS watches picked it up as 3.08 miles and those watches normally pick up anywhere from 2.98-3.05 at Mcalpine so the distance is very debatables but definitely a lot closer to a 5k than 4900m
@CoachGeorgeRJR though meet management may say 4900m, GPS watches picked it up as 3.08 miles and those watches normally pick up anywhere from 2.98-3.05 at Mcalpine so the distance is very debatables but definitely a lot closer to a 5k than 4900m
09/14/2015 9:05:31 AM
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@Ajtrack2014 it may be a fast course but 60% of the people didn't even get close to their PR's or match them at places like Mcalpine
@Ajtrack2014 it may be a fast course but 60% of the people didn't even get close to their PR's or match them at places like Mcalpine
09/14/2015 9:25:59 AM
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I think the question was did anyone have any information on the course. Looks like you ran the course and your time went from 17:03 to 16:29, that is a big difference and if course is 4900 vs 5000, that 100 meters is at least 20 to 30 seconds. Not that you have not trained for this type of improvement. B-)
I think the question was did anyone have any information on the course. Looks like you ran the course and your time went from 17:03 to 16:29, that is a big difference and if course is 4900 vs 5000, that 100 meters is at least 20 to 30 seconds. Not that you have not trained for this type of improvement.
09/14/2015 9:37:16 AM
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@trackstar97 GPS watches are less accurate on courses that have lots of turns, and that's the case here. A GPS watch is not a valid course measurement, and they tend to measure long due to their triangulation processes.
@trackstar97 GPS watches are less accurate on courses that have lots of turns, and that's the case here. A GPS watch is not a valid course measurement, and they tend to measure long due to their triangulation processes.
09/14/2015 9:56:46 AM
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@Ajtrack2014 yeah you have no idea what kind of training and hard dedication our team has put to get to the point where were at now. But if a 30 second improvement seems wrong, would that mean that Pr'ing by 30 seconds or more on mcalpine is wrong. Does that make the course rigged now too?
@Ajtrack2014 yeah you have no idea what kind of training and hard dedication our team has put to get to the point where were at now. But if a 30 second improvement seems wrong, would that mean that Pr'ing by 30 seconds or more on mcalpine is wrong. Does that make the course rigged now too?
09/14/2015 9:58:02 AM
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@Ajtrack2014 Pr'ing by 30 seconds or more in XC isn't abnormal
@Ajtrack2014 Pr'ing by 30 seconds or more in XC isn't abnormal
09/14/2015 10:02:16 AM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR True but if in fact a 4900meter course that's still more than 3 miles but a bit less than a 5k. Where would this fall on as? As this course had very sharply turns and quick turn arounds that affect times as well
@CoachGeorgeRJR True but if in fact a 4900meter course that's still more than 3 miles but a bit less than a 5k. Where would this fall on as? As this course had very sharply turns and quick turn arounds that affect times as well
09/14/2015 10:06:42 AM
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@trackstar97 Good question. 4900 is normally the cutoff for what we accept as 5000, so I suspect it will go in as a 5K. I just want to compare it to Providence, and then look at the rankings to make sure this one meet isn't disrupting everything. In the worst case, it will go into the rankings as a 3 Mile course, which is rare here in NC but is actually pretty common in other states.
@trackstar97 Good question. 4900 is normally the cutoff for what we accept as 5000, so I suspect it will go in as a 5K. I just want to compare it to Providence, and then look at the rankings to make sure this one meet isn't disrupting everything. In the worst case, it will go into the rankings as a 3 Mile course, which is rare here in NC but is actually pretty common in other states.
09/14/2015 10:12:10 AM
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It is hard to not ask the question if 40 out of top 50 boys all PR on the same day. Only 6 did not, 4 was not enough information.
It is hard to not ask the question if 40 out of top 50 boys all PR on the same day. Only 6 did not, 4 was not enough information.
09/14/2015 10:13:54 AM
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@Ajtrack2014 that is so irrelevant. Can people not pr at the same time because it'll make it look wrong
@Ajtrack2014 that is so irrelevant. Can people not pr at the same time because it'll make it look wrong
09/14/2015 10:21:31 AM
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@trackstar97 Rigged is a strong word, no one said anything was rigged. When you have a new course or meet people will ask question. Mcalpine is one of fastest courses around Charlotte so to see such a big drop was worth asking about the course at Freedom Park. The question was does 4900 vs 5000 make a difference. In most cases it does. Just like 1600 vs 1 mile makes a difference.
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Rigged is a strong word, no one said anything was rigged. When you have a new course or meet people will ask question. Mcalpine is one of fastest courses around Charlotte so to see such a big drop was worth asking about the course at Freedom Park. The question was does 4900 vs 5000 make a difference. In most cases it does. Just like 1600 vs 1 mile makes a difference.
09/14/2015 10:30:00 AM
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@trackstar97 I see you are taking this personal and that is not the point of the question, you are a senior in high school and I hope your 16:29 continues to drop but the question is still does a 100 meters make a difference. You still have not answered that question.
@trackstar97
I see you are taking this personal and that is not the point of the question, you are a senior in high school and I hope your 16:29 continues to drop but the question is still does a 100 meters make a difference. You still have not answered that question.
09/14/2015 11:45:17 AM
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@trackstar97 @Ajtrack2014 Well, I may be reversing course on this. A comparison of common athletes between this year's Providence Invitational and this meet shows that boys ran an average of 1:31 faster at Royals, and girls an average of 1:23 faster. That would tend to lend creedence to the idea that it's a long 3 Mile course rather than a short 5K. I suspect several factors are involved, including the flatness of the course and the cool temperatures, but it's definitely disrupting the overall team rankings on the site right now. I'm hoping to get a down-the-middle measurement for the course later this week. In the meantime, our company policy is to NOT include questionable results in the rankings until they are verifiable. For that reason, I'm going to move those times to the 3 Mile category until I can get more info. http://nc.milesplit.com/meets/210576/compare/207103/hs/f/5000m
@trackstar97 @Ajtrack2014 Well, I may be reversing course on this. A comparison of common athletes between this year's Providence Invitational and this meet shows that boys ran an average of 1:31 faster at Royals, and girls an average of 1:23 faster.

That would tend to lend creedence to the idea that it's a long 3 Mile course rather than a short 5K. I suspect several factors are involved, including the flatness of the course and the cool temperatures, but it's definitely disrupting the overall team rankings on the site right now.

I'm hoping to get a down-the-middle measurement for the course later this week. In the meantime, our company policy is to NOT include questionable results in the rankings until they are verifiable. For that reason, I'm going to move those times to the 3 Mile category until I can get more info.

http://nc.milesplit.com/meets/210576/compare/207103/hs/f/5000m
09/14/2015 5:51:57 PM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR is the event staying officialy at 3 mile run now?
@CoachGeorgeRJR is the event staying officialy at 3 mile run now?
09/14/2015 6:00:25 PM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR I think that is a good motion. Being a senior who's home course is Myers Park, I know what a hilly course vs flat course can do in terms of time, and what happened on Saturday night is not a question of hilly vs flat, it's definitely a question of course length. Corners could easily (and legally) be cut by as much as 10 meters on any given switchback (the course had at least 4 per mile). Also, the distance from the starting line to to finish line, which on a looped course should be 0.1 mile or 180 meters, was barely longer than the distance of a soccer field and not the 180 meters it should have been. So, although it is nice that everyone had a great time, I personally do not think the course is a full 5k.
@CoachGeorgeRJR I think that is a good motion. Being a senior who's home course is Myers Park, I know what a hilly course vs flat course can do in terms of time, and what happened on Saturday night is not a question of hilly vs flat, it's definitely a question of course length. Corners could easily (and legally) be cut by as much as 10 meters on any given switchback (the course had at least 4 per mile). Also, the distance from the starting line to to finish line, which on a looped course should be 0.1 mile or 180 meters, was barely longer than the distance of a soccer field and not the 180 meters it should have been.
So, although it is nice that everyone had a great time, I personally do not think the course is a full 5k.
09/14/2015 7:03:17 PM
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My watch clocked in at a 3.14. Many of my teammates also got in the 3.07-3.15 range and many of us PR'd. It's disappointing to see that our rankings will not even show up with these new times, and I think it should be changed to reflect what most people recorded, and what the teams went into the meet thinking they were going to run, a 5K
My watch clocked in at a 3.14. Many of my teammates also got in the 3.07-3.15 range and many of us PR'd. It's disappointing to see that our rankings will not even show up with these new times, and I think it should be changed to reflect what most people recorded, and what the teams went into the meet thinking they were going to run, a 5K
09/14/2015 7:28:21 PM
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@lauren_brodauf As mentioned above, GPS watches are not accurate for measuring courses. They almost always record long, because they measure in a series of straight lines instead of following a smooth path. If the course is measured with an accurate measurement method, and it comes out to be over 4900 meters, I will change it to 5K. I highly doubt that though. [b]The course ran an AVERAGE of 1:21 faster than McAlpine[/b] for female athletes that ran both Providence and Royals Twilight. For boys, the difference was even greater. Even if you convert the times from 3 miles to 5K, they would still be an average of 40 seconds faster than McAlpine! That tells me it wasn't just the flat course, or the cool temperatures - I think the course is short. Given that, I'm obligated to keep the times out of the rankings until I know for sure. The times are still on your profiles, just under 3 Miles instead of 5K. In NC that's not a common distance, but in MANY states it is, and your times are in those rankings with many other runners nationwide. We've been through this process with many courses over the years - at one time, Jungle Run was short, McAnderson Park was short, Southside Park was short, and a handful of other prominent courses as well. There is a consistent process we follow to ensure that the rankings are accurate, and we'll continue to follow it in this case.
@lauren_brodauf As mentioned above, GPS watches are not accurate for measuring courses. They almost always record long, because they measure in a series of straight lines instead of following a smooth path. If the course is measured with an accurate measurement method, and it comes out to be over 4900 meters, I will change it to 5K.

I highly doubt that though. The course ran an AVERAGE of 1:21 faster than McAlpine for female athletes that ran both Providence and Royals Twilight. For boys, the difference was even greater. Even if you convert the times from 3 miles to 5K, they would still be an average of 40 seconds faster than McAlpine! That tells me it wasn't just the flat course, or the cool temperatures - I think the course is short. Given that, I'm obligated to keep the times out of the rankings until I know for sure.

The times are still on your profiles, just under 3 Miles instead of 5K. In NC that's not a common distance, but in MANY states it is, and your times are in those rankings with many other runners nationwide. We've been through this process with many courses over the years - at one time, Jungle Run was short, McAnderson Park was short, Southside Park was short, and a handful of other prominent courses as well. There is a consistent process we follow to ensure that the rankings are accurate, and we'll continue to follow it in this case.
09/14/2015 7:29:30 PM
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@trackstar97 "For now" is the right way to put it, but given the huge variance in time compared to McAlpine, I would be stunned if anything conclusive comes up that proves it is actually a 5K.
@trackstar97 "For now" is the right way to put it, but given the huge variance in time compared to McAlpine, I would be stunned if anything conclusive comes up that proves it is actually a 5K.

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