Why is hand Timing for sprint events for polar bear meets different from distant events in indoor??
01/04/2018 10:52:06 AM
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Why must we round up the times for the 55M, 55H,and the 300M and not do it for the Mid-distant or Distant events. For example, we get a hand time of 6.51 but its reported as a 6.6, why is that a rule? Is that base on the meet host discretion or is it an actual NCHSAA rule? We do not do it for distant event and relays, so why do we do it for sprints.. Must of the coaches in my area have adopted the app "Sprint Timer" to do the timing for them.. (if you have not used this app please take a look at it, great tool to use) So why aren't tenths considered or ignored? Especially when the system already adds .24 to every submitted polar bear meet sprint time?
Why must we round up the times for the 55M, 55H,and the 300M and not do it for the Mid-distant or Distant events. For example, we get a hand time of 6.51 but its reported as a 6.6, why is that a rule? Is that base on the meet host discretion or is it an actual NCHSAA rule? We do not do it for distant event and relays, so why do we do it for sprints.. Must of the coaches in my area have adopted the app "Sprint Timer" to do the timing for them.. (if you have not used this app please take a look at it, great tool to use) So why aren't tenths considered or ignored? Especially when the system already adds .24 to every submitted polar bear meet sprint time?
01/04/2018 11:54:10 AM
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This is according to the NFHS Track and Field rule book and the accepted procedure from Track and Field News and the IAAF for hand times to converting to approximate fully automated timing.The track and field governing bodies did tests YEARS ago to figure out the difference between Auto timimg and Hand timing and this is what they came up with to compensate for human reaction time!! Also the shorter the sprint event the HARDER it is to get an accurate hand time!! Just try it at a track meet with auto timing and a results board and you'll see. It is VERY hard to be consistent with a fully automatic (gun started and laser finish) system. Also, any system that involves ANY human reaction in starting or stopping the timing system is NOT fully automatic and is considered hand timing.
This is according to the NFHS Track and Field rule book and the accepted procedure from Track and Field News and the IAAF for hand times to converting to approximate fully automated timing.The track and field governing bodies did tests YEARS ago to figure out the difference between Auto timimg and Hand timing and this is what they came up with to compensate for human reaction time!! Also the shorter the sprint event the HARDER it is to get an accurate hand time!! Just try it at a track meet with auto timing and a results board and you'll see. It is VERY hard to be consistent with a fully automatic (gun started and laser finish) system. Also, any system that involves ANY human reaction in starting or stopping the timing system is NOT fully automatic and is considered hand timing.
01/04/2018 4:15:29 PM
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@omegaafterdark Coaches are supposed to be rounding to the tenth for EVERY event. If they're not doing that in the distance races, they are breaking the rules for hand-timing. Technically, we are also supposed to add 0.24 to every hand-timed race, as well (sprints and distance). However, a long time ago the programmers of MileSplit decided to only enforce that in our system for races of 400 meters and down. This is because the 0.24 is for seeding purposes only (when comparing hand times to FAT), and seeding in distance races is very rarely impacted by the change when times are recorded correctly. That may be where some of the confusion is coming from in your area.
@omegaafterdark Coaches are supposed to be rounding to the tenth for EVERY event. If they're not doing that in the distance races, they are breaking the rules for hand-timing.

Technically, we are also supposed to add 0.24 to every hand-timed race, as well (sprints and distance). However, a long time ago the programmers of MileSplit decided to only enforce that in our system for races of 400 meters and down. This is because the 0.24 is for seeding purposes only (when comparing hand times to FAT), and seeding in distance races is very rarely impacted by the change when times are recorded correctly. That may be where some of the confusion is coming from in your area.
01/09/2018 10:31:49 AM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR So let me get this straight for ex. A kid runs 6.50 even hand time, does this time appear as 6.6 or 6.5 on the Complete Results. I understand the .24 addition in timing once its been placed in the system cause that has been in place for years. Are we saying in order for it to be recorded in Complete results it has to be 6.40 to 6.49 to be consider a 6.5 based on the rules or once its a 6.50 it goes in the result as 6.50 before it gets formatted.. Secondly if a kid runs 6.51 and another kid runs 6.59 hand time in the same heat who's the winner? Am I to presume that at Polar Bear meets with hand timing there's no true placements in the short sprints once its recorded. A bite confusing and a little unfair in regards to competition.
@CoachGeorgeRJR So let me get this straight for ex. A kid runs 6.50 even hand time, does this time appear as 6.6 or 6.5 on the Complete Results. I understand the .24 addition in timing once its been placed in the system cause that has been in place for years. Are we saying in order for it to be recorded in Complete results it has to be 6.40 to 6.49 to be consider a 6.5 based on the rules or once its a 6.50 it goes in the result as 6.50 before it gets formatted..
Secondly if a kid runs 6.51 and another kid runs 6.59 hand time in the same heat who's the winner? Am I to presume that at Polar Bear meets with hand timing there's no true placements in the short sprints once its recorded.
A bite confusing and a little unfair in regards to competition.
01/09/2018 10:48:18 AM
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@omegaafterdark Both would be recorded as 6.6, but one would be the winner. Place overrides time.
@omegaafterdark
Both would be recorded as 6.6, but one would be the winner. Place overrides time.
01/09/2018 11:22:07 AM
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Any hand times with 1/100ths get rounded up; ex.-6.51-6.59 all round to 6.6, then they get .24 added as the FAT conversion factor. So they would all be 6.84. 6.50 stays at 6.5; then gets the .24, to go to 6.74. Technically, any race above 200 meters only gets .14 added; but, somewhere along the line that got discarded!! :-]So now EVERY race gets .24 added. Hope we have made this as clear as mud for everyone! This is one of the reasons why track is way more than your average sport; it really is the Applied Science of Human Performance!! :-)
Any hand times with 1/100ths get rounded up; ex.-6.51-6.59 all round to 6.6, then they get .24 added as the FAT conversion factor. So they would all be 6.84. 6.50 stays at 6.5; then gets the .24, to go to 6.74. Technically, any race above 200 meters only gets .14 added; but, somewhere along the line that got discarded!! So now EVERY race gets .24 added. Hope we have made this as clear as mud for everyone! This is one of the reasons why track is way more than your average sport; it really is the Applied Science of Human Performance!!
01/09/2018 2:48:11 PM
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@MackFHS applied science and algebra lmao. Appreciate it..
@MackFHS applied science and algebra lmao. Appreciate it..
01/09/2018 2:58:49 PM
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@omegaafterdark The two guys above me got the details, so I won't repeat them. Keep in mind that humans cannot perceive 1/100 of a second, so there is no way that a human can stop a stopwatch at the correct hundredth. That's why hand times have to be rounded to the tenth. I will add this: I think the NCHSAA (and NFHS) have to take a close look at the Sprint Timer app. If used on a device with 120 frames per second, and started by sound rather than by hand, then it could qualify as FAT.
@omegaafterdark The two guys above me got the details, so I won't repeat them. Keep in mind that humans cannot perceive 1/100 of a second, so there is no way that a human can stop a stopwatch at the correct hundredth. That's why hand times have to be rounded to the tenth.

I will add this: I think the NCHSAA (and NFHS) have to take a close look at the Sprint Timer app. If used on a device with 120 frames per second, and started by sound rather than by hand, then it could qualify as FAT.
01/09/2018 3:02:00 PM
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@MackFHS The 0.14 for 300 and 400 was a USATF rule. NFHS has always been 0.24 for all events. And to be honest, that's probably not enough for many hand timers! I've seen many meets where the times are 0.3 - 0.4 off from FAT.
@MackFHS The 0.14 for 300 and 400 was a USATF rule. NFHS has always been 0.24 for all events. And to be honest, that's probably not enough for many hand timers! I've seen many meets where the times are 0.3 - 0.4 off from FAT.
01/10/2018 1:43:55 PM
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...and keep in mind time doesn't determine place, which might sound odd. We bought an FAT system 4 years ago and before that used a multi-lane timer which is a little more uniform than 8 stopwatches in that there is just one button starting all lanes. Even with experienced coaches or volunteers timing, we USUALLY got times in the 55 or 100 in an order that did not match what the place caller saw as the finishing order. It certainly is possible the place caller made a mistake but FAR more likely the timers hit the button at the wrong times. Now that we have FAT, there's at least one race every meet that I think I see a finishing order that the camera proves wrong (and I like to think I'm pretty good at picking order). Makes you wonder how many unintentional judgement errors are made at each meet when using hand timing.
...and keep in mind time doesn't determine place, which might sound odd. We bought an FAT system 4 years ago and before that used a multi-lane timer which is a little more uniform than 8 stopwatches in that there is just one button starting all lanes. Even with experienced coaches or volunteers timing, we USUALLY got times in the 55 or 100 in an order that did not match what the place caller saw as the finishing order. It certainly is possible the place caller made a mistake but FAR more likely the timers hit the button at the wrong times. Now that we have FAT, there's at least one race every meet that I think I see a finishing order that the camera proves wrong (and I like to think I'm pretty good at picking order). Makes you wonder how many unintentional judgement errors are made at each meet when using hand timing.
01/11/2018 9:54:13 AM
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@CoachSpencer you make valid points but unfortunately hand times are a necessary evil that's unavoidable. Most of your 1A/2A schools (alot of the 3A) do not have the participation rate to field a indoor team nonetheless the funding to get to these weekend meets at the JDL,Boo Williams, and Liberty to get those FAT timer. Especially in the eastern part of the State. (fyi New Hanover county/wilmington does not allow a indoor season for there high school athletes, think about that smh) That's why I mention that coaches should adapt using the Sprint Timer app to capture your times. You won't have to worry about times or placement because its all on camera. And you can set the app up to capture the sound of the gun to start the race. Here's the link for the app.. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sprinttimer-photo-finish/id430807521?mt=8
@CoachSpencer you make valid points but unfortunately hand times are a necessary evil that's unavoidable. Most of your 1A/2A schools (alot of the 3A) do not have the participation rate to field a indoor team nonetheless the funding to get to these weekend meets at the JDL,Boo Williams, and Liberty to get those FAT timer. Especially in the eastern part of the State. (fyi New Hanover county/wilmington does not allow a indoor season for there high school athletes, think about that smh) That's why I mention that coaches should adapt using the Sprint Timer app to capture your times. You won't have to worry about times or placement because its all on camera. And you can set the app up to capture the sound of the gun to start the race.

Here's the link for the app..
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sprinttimer-photo-finish/id430807521?mt=8
01/11/2018 12:05:21 PM
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@CoachGeorgeRJR I agree. Technology has advanced so should the NCHSAA..
@CoachGeorgeRJR I agree. Technology has advanced so should the NCHSAA..
01/11/2018 1:50:20 PM
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@omegaafterdark I agree, the SprintTimer App is a great tool to use. I've been an advocate of it for years. Even if the app isn't used, coaches should at least have a camera to record a video of the finish line. This will help with the places. Any cellphone with a good camera could be used for that.
@omegaafterdark
I agree, the SprintTimer App is a great tool to use. I've been an advocate of it for years. Even if the app isn't used, coaches should at least have a camera to record a video of the finish line. This will help with the places. Any cellphone with a good camera could be used for that.
01/11/2018 8:18:43 PM
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SprintTimer, while a nice tool, does not meet the technical requirements for FAT and this just makes it another HT device. The results from it are not acceptable as FAT in any rule book.
SprintTimer, while a nice tool, does not meet the technical requirements for FAT and this just makes it another HT device. The results from it are not acceptable as FAT in any rule book.
01/11/2018 9:17:42 PM
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We use the sprint timer app on a high end iPhone and the 55 dash times are comparable with FAT at JDL. It depends if you have the app synced with another device at the start so the gun actually starts the time.
We use the sprint timer app on a high end iPhone and the 55 dash times are comparable with FAT at JDL. It depends if you have the app synced with another device at the start so the gun actually starts the time.
01/12/2018 6:23:06 AM
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[quote=mjroth]SprintTimer, while a nice tool, does not meet the technical requirements for FAT and this just makes it another HT device. The results from it are not acceptable as FAT in any rule book.[/quote] @mjroth What technical requirements are you referring to? It surely is not just another HT device. It actually records faster frames per second than some versions of FAT devices like Flash Timing and Eagle Eye. Those devices use the sound of the gun to start the clock. The same can be done with SprintTimer. If those FAT devices can be acceptable with as low as 60fps, then why can't SprintTimer which can do 120fps?
mjroth wrote:
SprintTimer, while a nice tool, does not meet the technical requirements for FAT and this just makes it another HT device. The results from it are not acceptable as FAT in any rule book.


@mjroth
What technical requirements are you referring to? It surely is not just another HT device. It actually records faster frames per second than some versions of FAT devices like Flash Timing and Eagle Eye. Those devices use the sound of the gun to start the clock. The same can be done with SprintTimer. If those FAT devices can be acceptable with as low as 60fps, then why can't SprintTimer which can do 120fps?
01/12/2018 10:42:27 AM
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I have been following this thread with great interest. I have used the SprintTimer APP and feel it is an invaluable tool for events where FAT isn't used but it is technically by IAAF rules and common sense a hand held timing device. Therefore it has to be treated as such. The IAAF rule that pertains to acceptable FAT devises is rule 165. Many of you will disagree with using IAAF rules applying to NFHS events but there has to be guidelines to follow. That being said here are the reasons why this APP, in it's current state, will not be considered an FAT device. 165:14 - The System shall be approved by the IAAF, based upon a test of accuracy made within 4 years prior to the competition. It shall be started automatically by the Starter’s gun, so that the overall delay between the report from the muzzle or its equivalent visual indication and the start of the timing system is constant and equal to or less than 0.001 second. THERE IS NO WAY TO VERIFY THIS WITHIN THE APP PLUS IT DOES NOT GIVE TIMES TO .001 15. A system which operates automatically at either the start or the finish, but not at both, shall be considered to produce neither Hand nor Fully Automatic Times and shall not therefore be used to obtain official times. In this case, the times read on the image will not, under any circumstances, be considered as official, but the image may be used as a valid support in order to determine placings and adjust time intervals between athletes. Note: If the timing mechanism is not started by the Starter’s gun, the time-scale on the image shall indicate this fact automatically. IF THE APP IS USED ON ONE DEVICE IT CANNOT INDICATE THAT IS WAS NOT STARTED AUTOMATICALLY 16. The System must record the finish through a camera with a vertical slit, positioned in the extension of the finish line, producing a continuous image. The image must also be synchronised with a uniformly marked time-scale graduated in 0.01 second. In order to confirm that the camera is correctly aligned and to facilitate the reading of the Photo Finish image, the intersection of the lane lines and the finish line shall be coloured black in a suitable design. Any such design must be solely confined to the intersection, for no more than 2cm beyond, and not extended before, the leading edge of the finish line. THERE IS NOW WAY WITHIN THE APP TO DETERMINE PROPER ALIGNMENT OF TIMING DEVICE AND FINISH LINE. 17. The placing of the athletes shall be identified from the image by means of a cursor with its reading line guaranteed to be perpendicular to the time scale. THE APP MAY MEET THIS REQUIRMENT 18. The System must automatically determine and record the finish times of the athletes and must be able to produce a printed image which shows the time of every athlete. I DON'T BELIEVE THE APP CAN PRODUCT A PRINTABLE IMAGE THAT CAN SHOW ALL COMPETITORS AND THEIR TIME I am not trying to promote my business, defend the NCHSAA or discount the importance of this APP. It is an amazing tool for timing events but it does not meet the basic requirements to be a true FAT device. Charlie Rhodes Rhodes Race Timing
I have been following this thread with great interest. I have used the SprintTimer APP and feel it is an invaluable tool for events where FAT isn't used but it is technically by IAAF rules and common sense a hand held timing device. Therefore it has to be treated as such. The IAAF rule that pertains to acceptable FAT devises is rule 165. Many of you will disagree with using IAAF rules applying to NFHS events but there has to be guidelines to follow. That being said here are the reasons why this APP, in it's current state, will not be considered an FAT device.

165:14 - The System shall be approved by the IAAF, based upon a test of
accuracy made within 4 years prior to the competition. It shall be
started automatically by the Starter's gun, so that the overall delay
between the report from the muzzle or its equivalent visual indication
and the start of the timing system is constant and equal to or less than
0.001 second. THERE IS NO WAY TO VERIFY THIS WITHIN THE APP PLUS IT DOES NOT GIVE TIMES TO .001

15. A system which operates automatically at either the start or the finish, but not at both, shall be considered to produce neither Hand nor Fully Automatic Times and shall not therefore be used to obtain official
times. In this case, the times read on the image will not, under any
circumstances, be considered as official, but the image may be used
as a valid support in order to determine placings and adjust time
intervals between athletes. Note: If the timing mechanism is not started by the Starter's gun, the time-scale on the image shall indicate this fact automatically. IF THE APP IS USED ON ONE DEVICE IT CANNOT INDICATE THAT IS WAS NOT STARTED AUTOMATICALLY

16. The System must record the finish through a camera with a vertical
slit, positioned in the extension of the finish line, producing a
continuous image. The image must also be synchronised with a
uniformly marked time-scale graduated in 0.01 second.
In order to confirm that the camera is correctly aligned and to
facilitate the reading of the Photo Finish image, the intersection of
the lane lines and the finish line shall be coloured black in a suitable
design. Any such design must be solely confined to the intersection,
for no more than 2cm beyond, and not extended before, the leading
edge of the finish line. THERE IS NOW WAY WITHIN THE APP TO DETERMINE PROPER ALIGNMENT OF TIMING DEVICE AND FINISH LINE.

17. The placing of the athletes shall be identified from the image by
means of a cursor with its reading line guaranteed to be perpendicular
to the time scale. THE APP MAY MEET THIS REQUIRMENT

18. The System must automatically determine and record the finish times
of the athletes and must be able to produce a printed image which
shows the time of every athlete. I DON'T BELIEVE THE APP CAN PRODUCT A PRINTABLE IMAGE THAT CAN SHOW ALL COMPETITORS AND THEIR TIME

I am not trying to promote my business, defend the NCHSAA or discount the importance of this APP. It is an amazing tool for timing events but it does not meet the basic requirements to be a true FAT device.

Charlie Rhodes
Rhodes Race Timing
01/12/2018 11:13:38 AM
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@CDoug I was about to ask the same thing.. @mjroth are you basing your information on the start of the race and the reaction time?
@CDoug I was about to ask the same thing..

@mjroth are you basing your information on the start of the race and the reaction time?
01/12/2018 11:45:36 AM
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@runnwtrack Thanks Charlie. That's some good information. I guess there needs to be a new category of timing called "semi-automatic timing," because treating the SprintTimer App times as hand timed by rounding and adding .24 is not a good reflection on what the athlete really ran. Many schools in North Carolina are using the app and athletes are being hurt because their times are being made slower. Now I wouldn't use the app for big meets, invitationals, or championships. I do believe that there should be a discussion with the state about considering a special category of times recorded with the app, if it's started with the sound of the gun.
@runnwtrack
Thanks Charlie. That's some good information. I guess there needs to be a new category of timing called "semi-automatic timing," because treating the SprintTimer App times as hand timed by rounding and adding .24 is not a good reflection on what the athlete really ran. Many schools in North Carolina are using the app and athletes are being hurt because their times are being made slower. Now I wouldn't use the app for big meets, invitationals, or championships. I do believe that there should be a discussion with the state about considering a special category of times recorded with the app, if it's started with the sound of the gun.
01/12/2018 11:47:14 AM
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@runnwtrack appreciate your explanation of the rules.. I don't think anyone in this feed believes the app takes the place of a F.A.T system and the accuracy of that system. But I do believe that there can be a critique in the reporting of times when using the App vs a Stopwatch. Here's my take (anyone can chime in and critique) If you use SprintTimer app (or any other approved app)the time reported is recorded with tenths plus the .24 difference. No rounding up if there are hundredths of second like a stopwatch time.. That's it! Simple Adjustment on how we do time. If we want to lower that .24 we can.. I don't think that the premise was to replace F.A.T system with this app.. Does that make sense?
@runnwtrack appreciate your explanation of the rules.. I don't think anyone in this feed believes the app takes the place of a F.A.T system and the accuracy of that system. But I do believe that there can be a critique in the reporting of times when using the App vs a Stopwatch. Here's my take (anyone can chime in and critique)

If you use SprintTimer app (or any other approved app)the time reported is recorded with tenths plus the .24 difference. No rounding up if there are hundredths of second like a stopwatch time.. That's it! Simple Adjustment on how we do time. If we want to lower that .24 we can..

I don't think that the premise was to replace F.A.T system with this app.. Does that make sense?

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