Additional qualifiers?
05/12/2012 11:32:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Great 3A midwest region meet today at Marvin Ridge High School. Great performances all around! I looked back through some old forum posts but couldn't find much on the topic but why is there not an "additional qualifier" time for state qualification? Take a look at the boys 4x8. The 5th place team (Jay M. Robinson) is going home BUT would have won or been second in each of the other regions. Not suggesting they deserve to go or that it's a sham they are not. They knew 5th place gets nothing other than a teachable moment for a sophomore dominated 4x8. So why no additional qualifier standard? For example Michigan uses a 6th place average from the previous 4 years as the standard. Would this not build the sport in NC? Those of you that have been around the NCHSAA longer have any insight?
Great 3A midwest region meet today at Marvin Ridge High School. Great performances all around!

I looked back through some old forum posts but couldn't find much on the topic but why is there not an "additional qualifier" time for state qualification? Take a look at the boys 4x8. The 5th place team (Jay M. Robinson) is going home BUT would have won or been second in each of the other regions. Not suggesting they deserve to go or that it's a sham they are not. They knew 5th place gets nothing other than a teachable moment for a sophomore dominated 4x8.

So why no additional qualifier standard? For example Michigan uses a 6th place average from the previous 4 years as the standard. Would this not build the sport in NC? Those of you that have been around the NCHSAA longer have any insight?
05/13/2012 10:09:53 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 82
This could significantly change the competition. If there is a time standard, people would race for that in some distance races, rather than racing head-to-head. Whether you think that is a good thing or a bad thing, it is very much different. In some cases where the athletes might be clearly better than the standard (4A West girls distance the last two years) it could actually reduce racing, since they would know at a certain point everyone is going to qualify. In North Carolina, the regional is not only an qualifying race, it is also a championship. Putting in a new procedure that might reduce the emphasis on individual place, or that might cause top distance athletes to have to run much faster in their events than they would otherwise, could have a major impact on team championships. This is being discussed in another thread. It comes up every year because there is always some region that is much stronger than some others in some event. This is how playoffs work. You have to beat the actual opponents you face in order to advance, not some hypothetical "average" opponent.
This could significantly change the competition. If there is a time standard, people would race for that in some distance races, rather than racing head-to-head. Whether you think that is a good thing or a bad thing, it is very much different. In some cases where the athletes might be clearly better than the standard (4A West girls distance the last two years) it could actually reduce racing, since they would know at a certain point everyone is going to qualify.

In North Carolina, the regional is not only an qualifying race, it is also a championship. Putting in a new procedure that might reduce the emphasis on individual place, or that might cause top distance athletes to have to run much faster in their events than they would otherwise, could have a major impact on team championships.

This is being discussed in another thread. It comes up every year because there is always some region that is much stronger than some others in some event. This is how playoffs work. You have to beat the actual opponents you face in order to advance, not some hypothetical "average" opponent.
05/13/2012 10:25:43 AM
Coach
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5
@marathondave Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting only a qualifier mark. I was suggesting top 4 automatic + any who run under the additional qualifier (a standard that is fast enough to limit those who get it but obtainable for those regions year in and year out that might have a quality athlete that stays home). Looking at the past three years for boys 4x8 at the 3A state meet 8th place has been 8:14, 8:15, and 8:12. So you get an average somewhere in the 8:13 high/8:14 low range. That then becomes the additional qualifier mark. In the case of the 3A midwest 4x8, Robinson goes. In the case of the other 3 regions the top 4 go regardless of the time. This promotes racing for first/top 4 but also allows state competitive races to include those that belong.
@marathondave

Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting only a qualifier mark. I was suggesting top 4 automatic + any who run under the additional qualifier (a standard that is fast enough to limit those who get it but obtainable for those regions year in and year out that might have a quality athlete that stays home). Looking at the past three years for boys 4x8 at the 3A state meet 8th place has been 8:14, 8:15, and 8:12. So you get an average somewhere in the 8:13 high/8:14 low range. That then becomes the additional qualifier mark. In the case of the 3A midwest 4x8, Robinson goes. In the case of the other 3 regions the top 4 go regardless of the time. This promotes racing for first/top 4 but also allows state competitive races to include those that belong.
05/13/2012 10:57:59 AM
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@jmgutierrez I posted the same thing before reading this post. If we can think of these solutions, I sure hope that NCHSAA can come up with a fair and competitive alternative to the current qualifying procedure. As I often say "only in NC."
@jmgutierrez I posted the same thing before reading this post. If we can think of these solutions, I sure hope that NCHSAA can come up with a fair and competitive alternative to the current qualifying procedure. As I often say "only in NC."
05/13/2012 12:02:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 43
I would think that top 4 from each region plus anybody with a better performance than the 8th best entry on that list would work. That way the top 4 kids don't have to kill themselves to run a state qualifying time and the 5th place kid will not settle since he still has a shot to get in. This should make for better races at the regional level if the 5-8 kids don't just shut it down near the finish if their team isn't in the title hunt. This will also give you the top 8 kids in the state going head to head for the 8 scoring spots which is what everybody should want to see at the state meet.
I would think that top 4 from each region plus anybody with a better performance than the 8th best entry on that list would work. That way the top 4 kids don't have to kill themselves to run a state qualifying time and the 5th place kid will not settle since he still has a shot to get in. This should make for better races at the regional level if the 5-8 kids don't just shut it down near the finish if their team isn't in the title hunt. This will also give you the top 8 kids in the state going head to head for the 8 scoring spots which is what everybody should want to see at the state meet.
05/13/2012 7:03:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
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There seems to be a lot of wining around this time of year in regard s to kids not qualifying for the state. It is really simple, the coaches need to prepare these guys for their region and the athletes need to show up on that day in quesion. If they can't.do that than they don't deserve to be their period. Everyone knows what the deal is before they get there. If you don't agree go to another state where they run their meets in that manner
There seems to be a lot of wining around this time of year in regard s to kids not qualifying for the state. It is really simple, the coaches need to prepare these guys for their region and the athletes need to show up on that day in quesion. If they can't.do that than they don't deserve to be their period. Everyone knows what the deal is before they get there. If you don't agree go to another state where they run their meets in that manner
05/13/2012 8:03:13 PM
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@Dirt6 I agree, they could go to Texas where only the Top 2 in each region advance, but they do take 1 next best performance wildcard, to make a State meet with only 9 athletes or relay teams per event.
@Dirt6
I agree, they could go to Texas where only the Top 2 in each region advance, but they do take 1 next best performance wildcard, to make a State meet with only 9 athletes or relay teams per event.
05/13/2012 8:06:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16
I like the idea of having the top 4 finishers automatically qualify and then have any place winner that meets a state meet qualifying standard advance to the Championship as well. There would no longer be the perfect field of 16 athletes in each event at the state meet, but I think that this would increase the overall competitiveness of the regional meets. We would have more athletes fighting through the finish with the hope of meeting the standard. The depth and strength of events and regions changes from year to year. This would move the State Meet in the direction of becoming a meet of the best competitors in the state, rather than the top 4 qualifiers form each region.
I like the idea of having the top 4 finishers automatically qualify and then have any place winner that meets a state meet qualifying standard advance to the Championship as well. There would no longer be the perfect field of 16 athletes in each event at the state meet, but I think that this would increase the overall competitiveness of the regional meets. We would have more athletes fighting through the finish with the hope of meeting the standard. The depth and strength of events and regions changes from year to year. This would move the State Meet in the direction of becoming a meet of the best competitors in the state, rather than the top 4 qualifiers form each region.
05/13/2012 8:50:42 PM
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Plain and simple keep it like it is. Every year some event in the some Region is Loaded. Its ok, kids just need to compete. If you guys want to go by time and these qualifying standards then might as well do just top 8 times in prelims instead of head to head competition. 16 athletes in an event is enough. If you start adding you start diluting the meet.
Plain and simple keep it like it is. Every year some event in the some Region is Loaded. Its ok, kids just need to compete. If you guys want to go by time and these qualifying standards then might as well do just top 8 times in prelims instead of head to head competition. 16 athletes in an event is enough. If you start adding you start diluting the meet.

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