14th Annual Blue Ridge Classic 2016
04/18/2016 7:25:25 PM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
Performance List Link does not work.
Performance List Link does not work.
04/18/2016 9:25:07 PM
Coach
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 260
@mowilliams I don't see a performance list link on the page. I didn't think they put one out yet.
@mowilliams
I don't see a performance list link on the page. I didn't think they put one out yet.
04/19/2016 6:58:47 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 167
Entries don't close until midnight Tuesday.
Entries don't close until midnight Tuesday.
04/19/2016 8:30:14 AM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@CDoug On Milesplit there is a link to The Meet Page for the Blue Ridge Classic. On the Meet page there is a link to the Performance List. It does not work. Just now when I tried it again the link on Milesplit does not work so maybe they are trying to fix it.
@CDoug On Milesplit there is a link to The Meet Page for the Blue Ridge Classic. On the Meet page there is a link to the Performance List. It does not work. Just now when I tried it again the link on Milesplit does not work so maybe they are trying to fix it.
04/19/2016 8:34:59 AM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@PBolton I think a Performance List should be available periodically up until the meet with an as of date. Certainly many runners have entered and it would be nice to see who plans on running.
@PBolton I think a Performance List should be available periodically up until the meet with an as of date. Certainly many runners have entered and it would be nice to see who plans on running.
04/20/2016 11:11:04 PM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 171
The performance lists were put up this evening (Wednesday night). Entries just closed at midnight on Tuesday and some cleanup on the database needed to take place before posting. It is not realistic to expect entry lists to be continuously updated as entries come in.
The performance lists were put up this evening (Wednesday night). Entries just closed at midnight on Tuesday and some cleanup on the database needed to take place before posting. It is not realistic to expect entry lists to be continuously updated as entries come in.
04/21/2016 7:51:26 AM
User
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 123
@Slipstream I beg to differ. Many meets have provided periodic entry list.
@Slipstream
I beg to differ. Many meets have provided periodic entry list.
04/21/2016 9:46:33 AM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@Slipstream It seems logical to me that online entries would go directly into the database. The database could be uploaded to the web every night or every hour or every week by the push of a few buttons. Sure, bad info might be posted on the web, but in so doing, people viewing the web could help identify mistakes. If online entries don't go directly into a database somebody needs some programming help.
@Slipstream It seems logical to me that online entries would go directly into the database. The database could be uploaded to the web every night or every hour or every week by the push of a few buttons. Sure, bad info might be posted on the web, but in so doing, people viewing the web could help identify mistakes.

If online entries don't go directly into a database somebody needs some programming help.
04/21/2016 12:07:04 PM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 171
Online entries do go into a database for entries of that meet. Some online systems have a feature that allows folks to preview entries at any time. But some systems do not have that feature. In that case someone must download entries from the online system into the meet management software and then post the lists online. While I could do that daily I could use my time better.
Online entries do go into a database for entries of that meet. Some online systems have a feature that allows folks to preview entries at any time. But some systems do not have that feature. In that case someone must download entries from the online system into the meet management software and then post the lists online. While I could do that daily I could use my time better.
04/21/2016 3:08:10 PM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2416
@mowilliams Your use of "the database" could mean more than one thing. Online entries for a meet go into a separate, discrete database for that meet alone - they are not mixed into the general database of our website. So, that separate meet database has to be administered by someone. You make it sound as if this should happen automatically with no effort, but it does require some work to download the current entries (which would have to be done each time you want to update the entry list) and then post the lists. Maybe not a lot of work, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect or demand that of a meet director that might be a busy teacher and coach, or of a timer that might have to handle information from many meets. It's certainly something that a meet director could choose to do, but I don't think we can hold all meet directors to that standard just because some have the time and attention to spend on such a task. For reference, I have full access to meet entries, and I also did not provide continuously updated entry lists, for the same reason - I have to spend my time wisely given the multitude of tasks I have on any given day. So that's just my two cents on this subject, offered without judgement or negative feelings in any way! :-]
@mowilliams Your use of "the database" could mean more than one thing. Online entries for a meet go into a separate, discrete database for that meet alone - they are not mixed into the general database of our website. So, that separate meet database has to be administered by someone. You make it sound as if this should happen automatically with no effort, but it does require some work to download the current entries (which would have to be done each time you want to update the entry list) and then post the lists. Maybe not a lot of work, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect or demand that of a meet director that might be a busy teacher and coach, or of a timer that might have to handle information from many meets. It's certainly something that a meet director could choose to do, but I don't think we can hold all meet directors to that standard just because some have the time and attention to spend on such a task.

For reference, I have full access to meet entries, and I also did not provide continuously updated entry lists, for the same reason - I have to spend my time wisely given the multitude of tasks I have on any given day. So that's just my two cents on this subject, offered without judgement or negative feelings in any way!
04/21/2016 3:22:13 PM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@Slipstream If some systems have a feature that allows folks to preview entries anytime, why does your system not have this feature? Others have decided this is a good feature. Enhancing a database program to provide this should not be difficult or expensive in time or money. This feature is certainly just something that would be nice from a user prospective. Maybe an alternative is that you not post a link that does not work.
@Slipstream If some systems have a feature that allows folks to preview entries anytime, why does your system not have this feature?

Others have decided this is a good feature. Enhancing a database program to provide this should not be difficult or expensive in time or money.

This feature is certainly just something that would be nice from a user prospective.

Maybe an alternative is that you not post a link that does not work.
04/21/2016 7:20:51 PM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@CoachGeorgeRJR I was not suggesting that Milesplit be updated periodically. BUT Milesplit has a link to the Blue Ridge Meet web page. It takes you here: - http://www.blueridgeclassic.org/ That web page has a link that says Performance List. That link takes you here: http://nc.milesplit.com/meets/126535/coverage#.VxleEnq7epo Where you will find info about the 2013 meet. It just seems to me that if a meet is big enough to have it's own web page it ought to have the resources to automatically update the links on the meet web page.
@CoachGeorgeRJR I was not suggesting that Milesplit be updated periodically. BUT Milesplit has a link to the Blue Ridge Meet web page. It takes you here: -
http://www.blueridgeclassic.org/
That web page has a link that says Performance List.
That link takes you here:
http://nc.milesplit.com/meets/126535/coverage#.VxleEnq7epo
Where you will find info about the 2013 meet.

It just seems to me that if a meet is big enough to have it's own web page it ought to have the resources to automatically update the links on the meet web page.
04/21/2016 7:37:17 PM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2416
@mowilliams The thing is, they're using MILESPLIT for their entries, right? So it's not THEIR system you want to update periodically, it's OURS. They don't have their own system for entries, they're using our system. In order to have entries update automatically, it's our system that would have to be programmed differently, not their website. They can only manually post a performance list, which they would have to manually download from us, because their site is not directly connected to ours. Now, we COULD program MileSplit so that people could check entries before registration closes (or do virtual meets that way, for that matter). The problem with that is, our system doesn't post static pages, which take little server power. Nearly every page on MileSplit is dynamically generated, and that means every time someone would check the entries a server would have to prepare the report for them. That would be time- and resource-consuming for us, and we have chosen not to have it run that way. It comes back to this: it's up to a meet director to decide whether to provide those updates, and the vast majority don't (including me). I'm not sure where all this is suddenly coming from for this particular meet.
@mowilliams The thing is, they're using MILESPLIT for their entries, right? So it's not THEIR system you want to update periodically, it's OURS. They don't have their own system for entries, they're using our system. In order to have entries update automatically, it's our system that would have to be programmed differently, not their website. They can only manually post a performance list, which they would have to manually download from us, because their site is not directly connected to ours.

Now, we COULD program MileSplit so that people could check entries before registration closes (or do virtual meets that way, for that matter). The problem with that is, our system doesn't post static pages, which take little server power. Nearly every page on MileSplit is dynamically generated, and that means every time someone would check the entries a server would have to prepare the report for them. That would be time- and resource-consuming for us, and we have chosen not to have it run that way.

It comes back to this: it's up to a meet director to decide whether to provide those updates, and the vast majority don't (including me). I'm not sure where all this is suddenly coming from for this particular meet.
04/21/2016 10:27:49 PM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@CoachGeorgeRJR It is not about this particular meet. It is about ANY meet that is big enough to have its own web site. This whole discussion started with me posting a simple alert that a link did not work. Most web masters like to know that. You certainly know more about how MILESPLIT work than I do. I can only speak from a general knowledge of information systems. With that in mind, I would think that when a meet uses MILESPLIT for online entries they should have a pretty straightforward way of downloading information in a predefined format. The criteria for the download should only have to be filled in once and then saved. The download could be run at anytime with a few simple clicks. Knowing the format of the download file the meet webmaster could set up a batch update to the meet web page. Once the download criteria is saved and the batch update process is set up, updating the meet page should take maybe 10 minutes. If you say this can't be done on MILESPLIT I trust your judgement.
@CoachGeorgeRJR It is not about this particular meet. It is about ANY meet that is big enough to have its own web site.

This whole discussion started with me posting a simple alert that a link did not work. Most web masters like to know that.

You certainly know more about how MILESPLIT work than I do. I can only speak from a general knowledge of information systems. With that in mind, I would think that when a meet uses MILESPLIT for online entries they should have a pretty straightforward way of downloading information in a predefined format. The criteria for the download should only have to be filled in once and then saved. The download could be run at anytime with a few simple clicks.

Knowing the format of the download file the meet webmaster could set up a batch update to the meet web page.

Once the download criteria is saved and the batch update process is set up, updating the meet page should take maybe 10 minutes.

If you say this can't be done on MILESPLIT I trust your judgement.
04/22/2016 6:01:13 AM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2416
@mowilliams Fair enough. And I didn't say it couldn't be done (although there are a few hurdles that would need to be overcome), just that it's really up to the meet director to decide whether to invest the time in it or not.
@mowilliams Fair enough. And I didn't say it couldn't be done (although there are a few hurdles that would need to be overcome), just that it's really up to the meet director to decide whether to invest the time in it or not.
04/22/2016 7:36:49 AM
Coach
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 260
Here's my two cents. There are pros and cons for posting live or periodic entries. JDL stopped showing entries because people would falsely adjust times to get in or get better seeding. That's the con part. The Taco Bell Classic meet management posted periodic entries but never included the times. I think that was a good idea for that meet. For our invitational I decided to update the entries every few days. This did take some work on my part to download the entries into Hy-Tek, then create a performance list, and then post on NCRunners. I included the times because I could accept or reject any suspect times. If a school has hired a timing company and is not doing the meet management then it's up to the company. The Charlotte Flights are doing our timing, but I created the database and will give it to them to run the meet. Being able to see the list early gives coaches a chance to see mistakes or athletes that they left out. Also, I'm not sure if this is a pro or con, but some schools and athletes sign up for different meets on the same day and decide which one they will attend based on the competition on the performance list. All and all, the list will get out sooner or later.
Here's my two cents. There are pros and cons for posting live or periodic entries. JDL stopped showing entries because people would falsely adjust times to get in or get better seeding. That's the con part. The Taco Bell Classic meet management posted periodic entries but never included the times. I think that was a good idea for that meet. For our invitational I decided to update the entries every few days. This did take some work on my part to download the entries into Hy-Tek, then create a performance list, and then post on NCRunners. I included the times because I could accept or reject any suspect times. If a school has hired a timing company and is not doing the meet management then it's up to the company. The Charlotte Flights are doing our timing, but I created the database and will give it to them to run the meet. Being able to see the list early gives coaches a chance to see mistakes or athletes that they left out. Also, I'm not sure if this is a pro or con, but some schools and athletes sign up for different meets on the same day and decide which one they will attend based on the competition on the performance list. All and all, the list will get out sooner or later.
04/22/2016 9:43:11 AM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@CDoug I appreciate the contributions that you and CoachGeorge have made and continue to make to track and field. The little extras make a difference. I think a good situation would be something this. If a meet director decides to use online registration through MILESPLIT they could also decide if they want to display entries on MILESPLIT. If they decide yes, they could decide what entry time to use for seeding. That could be PR's or season best. For runners without previous competition in MILESPLIT, coaches should submit predicted(no slower than) times. If the actual time is slower than the predicted time, that coach would not be allowed to enter predicted times in future meets. This might result in conservative predictions instead of coaches stretching reality to get a faster seed time. Without a previous time or predicted time the runners entered by that coach would be given NT (no time) and seeded in the slowest heat. Doing something similar to this would of course would require programing support which MILESPLIT may not have or want. If that is the case they should at least provide for a file to be downloaded with selected criteria so that a meet web page could be populated. Updating a web could be easily automated to a few clicks. A college Information Systems Department might be a good source of programing support on a volunteer basis. I could see a faculty member assigning this as an extra credit project.
@CDoug I appreciate the contributions that you and CoachGeorge have made and continue to make to track and field. The little extras make a difference.

I think a good situation would be something this. If a meet director decides to use online registration through MILESPLIT they could also decide if they want to display entries on MILESPLIT. If they decide yes, they could decide what entry time to use for seeding. That could be PR's or season best. For runners without previous competition in MILESPLIT, coaches should submit predicted(no slower than) times. If the actual time is slower than the predicted time, that coach would not be allowed to enter predicted times in future meets. This might result in conservative predictions instead of coaches stretching reality to get a faster seed time.
Without a previous time or predicted time the runners entered by that coach would be given NT (no time) and seeded in the slowest heat.

Doing something similar to this would of course would require programing support which MILESPLIT may not have or want. If that is the case they should at least provide for a file to be downloaded with selected criteria so that a meet web page could be populated. Updating a web could be easily automated to a few clicks.

A college Information Systems Department might be a good source of programing support on a volunteer basis. I could see a faculty member assigning this as an extra credit project.
04/22/2016 11:08:51 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 214
Am I understanding correctly that you want to see the entries, including seed marks, from OTHER teams before the entry deadline? Some meets may choose to do this, but you are not entitled to see what other teams are doing while you can still edit your entries. I know most people don't treat invitationals like major team score events, but the rule book anticipates teams doing their entries in a vacuum without knowledge of what other teams are doing. I would consider it a significant advantage if I could see everyone else's conference meet entries before deciding on mine. Of course, if they could also see them then we might all be adjusting things right at the deadline, sort of like what was alluded to with JDL, and why they quit posting marks. A lot of major meets NEVER post the performance lists - they only post entry lists, and they don't necessarily do that until registration ends. Having been pretty close to meet management at Raleigh Relays and Taco Bell, I can completely understand why this is the case. With everything else you have to deal with in a meet that size, having to answer complaints about whether seed marks are legitimate, or arguing with coaches whose seed marks were so egregious you actually adjusted them, is an additional headache you don't need. As far as the suggestion that the meet itself make performance lists available on it's website during registration, since that is a function that is not possible through Milesplit - the entire reason for contracting with something like Milesplit is so they can handle that technology component that is not part of the meet staff expertise and/or not something they have time to do while preparing for the meet. (Pretty much all high school meets are put on by people who are doing that meet on top of their coaching duties, which is in addition to their actual full-time jobs.) Other than NB Outdoor or maybe Taco Bell, even the biggest high school meet has a total budget that tops out at a few thousand bucks. You pay a good timer $1000 to be there for 14 hours on Saturday and set up the meet ahead of time, and you are not getting Flash Results. You get someone who just like all the coaches also has a full-time job during the week. I personally can't see posting performance lists prior to the close of registration for a meet I'm involved in. (If coaches want to work between themselves, or even coordinate with the meet director, to try to set up good races, that's great.) But even if you wanted to provide that info, I can see why most meets don't make it a priority.
Am I understanding correctly that you want to see the entries, including seed marks, from OTHER teams before the entry deadline?
Some meets may choose to do this, but you are not entitled to see what other teams are doing while you can still edit your entries. I know most people don't treat invitationals like major team score events, but the rule book anticipates teams doing their entries in a vacuum without knowledge of what other teams are doing. I would consider it a significant advantage if I could see everyone else's conference meet entries before deciding on mine. Of course, if they could also see them then we might all be adjusting things right at the deadline, sort of like what was alluded to with JDL, and why they quit posting marks.

A lot of major meets NEVER post the performance lists - they only post entry lists, and they don't necessarily do that until registration ends. Having been pretty close to meet management at Raleigh Relays and Taco Bell, I can completely understand why this is the case. With everything else you have to deal with in a meet that size, having to answer complaints about whether seed marks are legitimate, or arguing with coaches whose seed marks were so egregious you actually adjusted them, is an additional headache you don't need.

As far as the suggestion that the meet itself make performance lists available on it's website during registration, since that is a function that is not possible through Milesplit - the entire reason for contracting with something like Milesplit is so they can handle that technology component that is not part of the meet staff expertise and/or not something they have time to do while preparing for the meet. (Pretty much all high school meets are put on by people who are doing that meet on top of their coaching duties, which is in addition to their actual full-time jobs.) Other than NB Outdoor or maybe Taco Bell, even the biggest high school meet has a total budget that tops out at a few thousand bucks. You pay a good timer $1000 to be there for 14 hours on Saturday and set up the meet ahead of time, and you are not getting Flash Results. You get someone who just like all the coaches also has a full-time job during the week.
I personally can't see posting performance lists prior to the close of registration for a meet I'm involved in. (If coaches want to work between themselves, or even coordinate with the meet director, to try to set up good races, that's great.) But even if you wanted to provide that info, I can see why most meets don't make it a priority.
04/22/2016 11:27:47 AM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
@RocketRunning I was unaware that coaches could edit entries after they are made. I think the Performance List should not include an editable time, but instead it should be a MILESPLIT time and should indicate FAT or Hand Timed. Meet directors could then use those times, or some other time, that may be submitted by a coach for developing Heat Sheets. I see the Performance List as a tool to help develop a race strategy. Knowing who will be in a race and what they are likely to do is beneficial. I am not suggesting that Heat Sheets be posted before the registration deadline, just a Performance List.
@RocketRunning I was unaware that coaches could edit entries after they are made. I think the Performance List should not include an editable time, but instead it should be a MILESPLIT time and should indicate FAT or Hand Timed.
Meet directors could then use those times, or some other time, that may be submitted by a coach for developing Heat Sheets.

I see the Performance List as a tool to help develop a race strategy. Knowing who will be in a race and what they are likely to do is beneficial.

I am not suggesting that Heat Sheets be posted before the registration deadline, just a Performance List.

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.