McAlpine Course Changed . . . now a 5k (again)
09/18/2015 6:12:10 PM
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So with all the recent talk about course length, Larry McAfee has just adjusted McAlpine to be a 5k. The Hares & Hounds Invite tomorrow will be following the new addition, but will be the first meet this season to do so. The addition was just completed yesterday I believe. Right before the 1.25 mark, there is a small new section through the woods. Larry says it's about 100m, but after running it today, I'd say it's about 50-75m. The rest of the course is the same. Why the addition? With the construction done at McAlpine this summer, sections were widened, and the end of the straightaway was shortened. Also, the hill has been widened.
So with all the recent talk about course length, Larry McAfee has just adjusted McAlpine to be a 5k.

The Hares & Hounds Invite tomorrow will be following the new addition, but will be the first meet this season to do so. The addition was just completed yesterday I believe.

Right before the 1.25 mark, there is a small new section through the woods. Larry says it's about 100m, but after running it today, I'd say it's about 50-75m. The rest of the course is the same.

Why the addition? With the construction done at McAlpine this summer, sections were widened, and the end of the straightaway was shortened. Also, the hill has been widened.
09/18/2015 11:41:57 PM
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@CoachHovis Hmm... so supposed PRs set at Providence Invitational can be thrown out because the course was 50-100m short? I don't care too much about times in general except when it comes to standard courses like McAlpine. Now we'll be chasing results from August because the course was short. I ran the course with my daughter last weekend & didn't notice anything different- the change you're talking about or the trail being widened. ...not to say that it wasn't. I'm sure you run there more than I do. Thanks for the heads up.
@CoachHovis

Hmm... so supposed PRs set at Providence Invitational can be thrown out because the course was 50-100m short? I don't care too much about times in general except when it comes to standard courses like McAlpine. Now we'll be chasing results from August because the course was short.

I ran the course with my daughter last weekend & didn't notice anything different- the change you're talking about or the trail being widened. ...not to say that it wasn't. I'm sure you run there more than I do.

Thanks for the heads up.
09/19/2015 4:39:58 AM
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As someone who runs there almost everyday and since 1992, I could talk a lot about the changes that have happened over time. The big picture is racing and where someone finishes for sure. However, sad to see McAlpine have to change. If we're talking about 10-20 sec depending on pace, I think the Prov Invite still ran fast. Times were still impressive for the first meet of the season.
As someone who runs there almost everyday and since 1992, I could talk a lot about the changes that have happened over time.

The big picture is racing and where someone finishes for sure. However, sad to see McAlpine have to change.

If we're talking about 10-20 sec depending on pace, I think the Prov Invite still ran fast. Times were still impressive for the first meet of the season.
09/19/2015 5:59:17 AM
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@CoachSpencer I think the changes in this case were subtle, and they would only be noticed by someone who got to run the perfect line, especially in the first 2000 meters of the race. How often does that happen? I have a couple of emails from Larry and Kurt about it. The course was always a little off in the final 400 meters (I got it at 4970, I think), and that's what Larry found this year, too - all the mileage markers matched up until the last 400. So, this is not just a correction due to the construction, but also in comparison to the way the course has been for years. Larry's most recent series of measurements has the course at 5001 meters.
@CoachSpencer I think the changes in this case were subtle, and they would only be noticed by someone who got to run the perfect line, especially in the first 2000 meters of the race. How often does that happen?

I have a couple of emails from Larry and Kurt about it. The course was always a little off in the final 400 meters (I got it at 4970, I think), and that's what Larry found this year, too - all the mileage markers matched up until the last 400. So, this is not just a correction due to the construction, but also in comparison to the way the course has been for years.

Larry's most recent series of measurements has the course at 5001 meters.
09/19/2015 6:54:25 AM
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If the change was made at 1.25 miles, all of the markers after that are off. Correct? Do we know if it was measured shortest distance or down the middle?
If the change was made at 1.25 miles, all of the markers after that are off. Correct? Do we know if it was measured shortest distance or down the middle?
09/19/2015 2:03:22 PM
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Larry measured it about 7 times this week. Yes, the markers are all going to be off. They need to be redone, hopefully soon. It's always been a very long .1 to finish. Course still ran well today, no one talked much about the new addition.
Larry measured it about 7 times this week.

Yes, the markers are all going to be off. They need to be redone, hopefully soon. It's always been a very long .1 to finish.

Course still ran well today, no one talked much about the new addition.
09/19/2015 4:31:05 PM
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For future reference: I saw 2-3 kids run right into the 1 mile post.
For future reference: I saw 2-3 kids run right into the 1 mile post.
09/21/2015 1:29:31 PM
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- new distance markers are being put in this week - of sep 21 - for my races (prov invite, wendys footlocker etc) i always block off the 1 mile mark so that runners cant cut through - ben is closer to being right on the distance
* new distance markers are being put in this week - of sep 21

* for my races (prov invite, wendys footlocker etc) i always block off the 1 mile mark so that runners cant cut through

* ben is closer to being right on the distance
09/21/2015 2:05:05 PM
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ps - we wanted to have it all done before the Providence Invite but construction delays set us back in that department :-/
ps - we wanted to have it all done before the Providence Invite but construction delays set us back in that department :-/
09/22/2015 7:56:02 AM
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to clarify the comment by Larry about the new horseshoe extension being a 100 m - yes and no is the answer - the extension is 100 m but when we did that we also removed about 40+ meters from the curve of the old horseshoe - basic math people - so Ben is right about it really only being about 60 m
to clarify the comment by Larry about the new horseshoe extension being a 100 m - yes and no is the answer - the extension is 100 m but when we did that we also removed about 40+ meters from the curve of the old horseshoe - basic math people - so Ben is right about it really only being about 60 m
09/22/2015 10:17:56 AM
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That's about what it seemed on Saturday. I do hope everyone will use the new part for their weekday races.
That's about what it seemed on Saturday.

I do hope everyone will use the new part for their weekday races.
09/22/2015 1:39:57 PM
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@PanthersXC06 Yes, it is basic math but nowhere in this thread is it explained that it's an extension of that curve. Coach Hovis' original post says, "new section." From people who ran Hare & Hounds, I heard it explained, "new loop," so without seeing it or hearing the change explained, we'd have no way of knowing it was an extension. The map you emailed was helpful to visualize it. Does this correct just for the most recent construction or for the widening of the trail over time? ...in other words, are the Providence Invitational results the only ones that won't be able to be compared or does this add to what the distance was for the past 10 years or so? Thanks.
@PanthersXC06
Yes, it is basic math but nowhere in this thread is it explained that it's an extension of that curve. Coach Hovis' original post says, "new section." From people who ran Hare & Hounds, I heard it explained, "new loop," so without seeing it or hearing the change explained, we'd have no way of knowing it was an extension. The map you emailed was helpful to visualize it. Does this correct just for the most recent construction or for the widening of the trail over time? ...in other words, are the Providence Invitational results the only ones that won't be able to be compared or does this add to what the distance was for the past 10 years or so?

Thanks.
09/22/2015 2:47:54 PM
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@CoachSpencer It sort of corrects for both. The "new" (really newest) version of the course is about 30 meters longer than it has been over the last few years (I measured it at 4973 in 2013). I don't think that's enough distance to keep old results from being comparable - should result in a difference of well under 10 seconds for top runners. So, the net results are summarized here: 1) The course going forward is less than 10 seconds (30 meters) longer than it was in past years. 2) The course going forward is about 60 meters (probably 15 seconds) longer than the Providence Invitational. (I'll have to decide what to do with those results, and I don't have any clear idea one way or the other right now). Of course, we may have the same situation going on with the new arrangement of Ivey Redmon, which appears to be at least a little tougher than the old course, although they are the same distance. In that case, we have to decide whether to create a separate "new course" designation with separate course records, or whether we keep the new times in the same set of course records as previous years.
@CoachSpencer It sort of corrects for both. The "new" (really newest) version of the course is about 30 meters longer than it has been over the last few years (I measured it at 4973 in 2013). I don't think that's enough distance to keep old results from being comparable - should result in a difference of well under 10 seconds for top runners.

So, the net results are summarized here:

1) The course going forward is less than 10 seconds (30 meters) longer than it was in past years.

2) The course going forward is about 60 meters (probably 15 seconds) longer than the Providence Invitational. (I'll have to decide what to do with those results, and I don't have any clear idea one way or the other right now).

Of course, we may have the same situation going on with the new arrangement of Ivey Redmon, which appears to be at least a little tougher than the old course, although they are the same distance. In that case, we have to decide whether to create a separate "new course" designation with separate course records, or whether we keep the new times in the same set of course records as previous years.
09/22/2015 5:44:46 PM
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in terms of Providence Invite we lost 13 meters from the version being used in the past (amount lost at turn at Independence rd.) - ie last few years so probably the Invite times are ok i would think the reason we added the additional 25 meters or so is - as Jeff and Ben have said - over the course of the many years the edges and corners of the course have worn away - creeped inwards etc - so we were slowly losing about a meter or 2 a year if you think about it - still putting it within the 1% rule for courses however...
in terms of Providence Invite we lost 13 meters from the version being used in the past (amount lost at turn at Independence rd.) - ie last few years so probably the Invite times are ok i would think
the reason we added the additional 25 meters or so is - as Jeff and Ben have said - over the course of the many years the edges and corners of the course have worn away - creeped inwards etc - so we were slowly losing about a meter or 2 a year if you think about it - still putting it within the 1% rule for courses however...
09/22/2015 7:31:36 PM
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Is it possible to post the new course map for us to see and visualize?
Is it possible to post the new course map for us to see and visualize?
09/23/2015 5:52:28 AM
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If the 2015 Providence Meet distance was 4940 meters and is to be used in virtual meet results, you could enable conversions like you do for a mile/1600. If conversions are enabled the Providence times are included in Virtual Meets with times adjusted by multiplying by 1.01214574898. (5000/4940=1.01214574898) The Boys Invitational winning time would be 15:23 X 1.01214574898 =15:34 The Girls Invitational winning time would be 18:09 X 1.01214574898 =18:22 If conversions are not enabled the Providence results would not be included in a virtual meet. Previous Meet records should be shown with an asterisk indicating that the course was not a measured 5K.
If the 2015 Providence Meet distance was 4940 meters and is to be used in virtual meet results, you could enable conversions like you do for a mile/1600. If conversions are enabled the Providence times are included in Virtual Meets with times adjusted by multiplying by 1.01214574898. (5000/4940=1.01214574898)

The Boys Invitational winning time would be 15:23 X 1.01214574898 =15:34
The Girls Invitational winning time would be 18:09 X 1.01214574898 =18:22

If conversions are not enabled the Providence results would not be included in a virtual meet.

Previous Meet records should be shown with an asterisk indicating that the course was not a measured 5K.
09/23/2015 5:57:46 AM
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@mowilliams It's a good idea, but we don't have preprogrammed conversions in our system to do that (and conversions have never been available in virtual meets). Also, the course has always been considered a 5K in our system - we accept a range of distances, because courses do vary in length, even from year to year
@mowilliams It's a good idea, but we don't have preprogrammed conversions in our system to do that (and conversions have never been available in virtual meets). Also, the course has always been considered a 5K in our system - we accept a range of distances, because courses do vary in length, even from year to year
09/23/2015 8:13:23 AM
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[img]http://www.milesplit.com/static/161847/a[/img]
09/23/2015 8:14:35 AM
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if you check the picture - it shows the only "change" to the course - the horseshoe being extended a bit - new markers are being put in right now
if you check the picture - it shows the only "change" to the course - the horseshoe being extended a bit - new markers are being put in right now
09/23/2015 8:15:40 AM
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sorry the picture is so small but it seems milesplit makes the picture small when you upload it
sorry the picture is so small but it seems milesplit makes the picture small when you upload it

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