Poll: Public Poll: How Should the NCHSAA Handle Team Points from Adaptive and Wheelchair Athletes

Option Votes Score
Option 1: Keep the current system. 241 82%
Option 2: Separate adaptive division with its own championship. 44 15%
Option 3: Award two team championships only when needed. 8 3%
293 Votes

Vote!
Public Poll: How Should the NCHSAA Handle Team Points from Adaptive and Wheelchair Athletes
09/04/2014 6:41:38 AM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2419
The NCTCCCA needs your voice on an issue that caused some significant discussion at the end of the spring season. In our current scoring system, wheelchair and adaptive athletes score team points if they meet a minimum standard in their performances at the state meet. If there is one athlete in the event, then one point is scored; if two athletes compete against each other, the winner gets 2 points and second place gets 1. If more athletes participate, the point value for winning will increase on the 8-place scoring system, until the scoring is the same as for all events when there are 8 participants (10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1). This is one of three ways that the NFHS suggests for state associations to choose from regarding wheelchair and adaptive athletes. Option 1 in the poll is to keep the current system, which played a role in Mount Tabor's team championship last spring. Option 2 is to create a separate adaptive division with its own team championship, and then use the 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 scoring system regardless of the number of participants in the wheelchair/adaptive events. In this system, all adaptive and wheelchair athletes from all classifications would compete together, during one of the regularly-scheduled state meets. This would increase competition for adaptive athletes and maintain the opportunity to compete for a championship, but would remove the points from the standard team competition. Option 3 is to maintain the current scoring system, but to award two championships whenever the case arises that the adaptive/wheelchair points affect the outcome of the standard team championship. Under this system, Apex would have been awarded the standard 4A championship last spring, while Mount Tabor would have been awarded the "overall" team championship due to their extra points from the wheelchair events.
The NCTCCCA needs your voice on an issue that caused some significant discussion at the end of the spring season. In our current scoring system, wheelchair and adaptive athletes score team points if they meet a minimum standard in their performances at the state meet. If there is one athlete in the event, then one point is scored; if two athletes compete against each other, the winner gets 2 points and second place gets 1. If more athletes participate, the point value for winning will increase on the 8-place scoring system, until the scoring is the same as for all events when there are 8 participants (10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1). This is one of three ways that the NFHS suggests for state associations to choose from regarding wheelchair and adaptive athletes.

Option 1 in the poll is to keep the current system, which played a role in Mount Tabor's team championship last spring.

Option 2 is to create a separate adaptive division with its own team championship, and then use the 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 scoring system regardless of the number of participants in the wheelchair/adaptive events. In this system, all adaptive and wheelchair athletes from all classifications would compete together, during one of the regularly-scheduled state meets. This would increase competition for adaptive athletes and maintain the opportunity to compete for a championship, but would remove the points from the standard team competition.

Option 3 is to maintain the current scoring system, but to award two championships whenever the case arises that the adaptive/wheelchair points affect the outcome of the standard team championship. Under this system, Apex would have been awarded the standard 4A championship last spring, while Mount Tabor would have been awarded the "overall" team championship due to their extra points from the wheelchair events.
09/06/2014 1:50:36 PM
User
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1
Option 1
Option 1
09/06/2014 2:25:59 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Competition requires heart, spirit and sheer determination. How are these athletes different? Let them compete!
Competition requires heart, spirit and sheer determination. How are these athletes different? Let them compete!
09/06/2014 5:37:20 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Option1
Option1
09/06/2014 7:03:42 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Option 1, keeping the rules as they are is the right choice. Option 2 and 3 are tantamount to "separate but equal" -- clearly not the right choice. I don't need to remind you where that phrase comes from... or if you have no idea of what I am talking about, Google it. Jesus Ortiz
Option 1, keeping the rules as they are is the right choice.

Option 2 and 3 are tantamount to "separate but equal" -- clearly not the right choice. I don't need to remind you where that phrase comes from... or if you have no idea of what I am talking about, Google it.

Jesus Ortiz
09/06/2014 8:21:58 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
This whole issue infuriates me! As a parent of an athlete (not track or cross country), an Occupational Therapist, Former Adaptive ski Instructor, and friend to many adaptive athletes this topic really gets me heated. Simply put, anyone who is contesting that these athletes have any sort of advantage, should be put in a w/c, blindfolded, or told to run around a track on one leg to see how difficult it is! These athletes have to train harder, adapt, and persevere against odds that none of our "able bodied" athletes even come close to. Option 1 ALL THE WAY!!
This whole issue infuriates me! As a parent of an athlete (not track or cross country), an Occupational Therapist, Former Adaptive ski Instructor, and friend to many adaptive athletes this topic really gets me heated. Simply put, anyone who is contesting that these athletes have any sort of advantage, should be put in a w/c, blindfolded, or told to run around a track on one leg to see how difficult it is! These athletes have to train harder, adapt, and persevere against odds that none of our "able bodied" athletes even come close to. Option 1 ALL THE WAY!!
09/07/2014 6:40:55 AM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
The current system seems fine and has been in place for a few years. A big thank you should go to all the coaches(in all classifications) that work with these athletes.
The current system seems fine and has been in place for a few years. A big thank you should go to all the coaches(in all classifications) that work with these athletes.
09/07/2014 8:33:54 AM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Option 1
Option 1
09/07/2014 1:34:39 PM
User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1
Dont exclude kids. No kids left behind. Each child should have a chance to contribute to their own school team. Coaches uncomfortable reaching out to some kids should reconsider their ability to coach or should ask for assistance in doing so. Every team has its own strengths and weaknesses. Is it unfair that some teams have more sprinters, other teams have more long distance runners, or other teams have more disabled participants?
Dont exclude kids. No kids left behind. Each child should have a chance to contribute to their own school team. Coaches uncomfortable reaching out to some kids should reconsider their ability to coach or should ask for assistance in doing so. Every team has its own strengths and weaknesses. Is it unfair that some teams have more sprinters, other teams have more long distance runners, or other teams have more disabled participants?
09/07/2014 10:59:17 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Option 1! Anyone who saw these kids at the high school end-of-year awards, would know the right choice. Inclusion is an obvious benefit to the wheelchair athlete, but it's much more than that. The joy and empathy on the faces of the OTHER teammates said it all. It changed their hearts. When they all ran down the auditorium aisle to go up on stage and accept their award, they stopped and made sure the wheelchair athlete was included in that recognition, stooping down to lift him up. He mattered. Teachers had said how this inclusion had morphed this kid who was shy and sort of a loner, into an outgoing kid who was the one everyone wanted to high five in the hallways. Athletics changes lives, inspires youth to have pride, to work hard and strive for their best. These wheelchair athletes did just that, in a system that told them they mattered...until they did.
Option 1!
Anyone who saw these kids at the high school end-of-year awards, would know the right choice. Inclusion is an obvious benefit to the wheelchair athlete, but it's much more than that. The joy and empathy on the faces of the OTHER teammates said it all. It changed their hearts. When they all ran down the auditorium aisle to go up on stage and accept their award, they stopped and made sure the wheelchair athlete was included in that recognition, stooping down to lift him up. He mattered. Teachers had said how this inclusion had morphed this kid who was shy and sort of a loner, into an outgoing kid who was the one everyone wanted to high five in the hallways. Athletics changes lives, inspires youth to have pride, to work hard and strive for their best. These wheelchair athletes did just that, in a system that told them they mattered...until they did.
09/08/2014 8:42:56 AM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Option 1
Option 1
09/08/2014 10:51:18 AM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Apex is just a sore loser! If a team doesn't have anyone competing in the high jump, would you score the high jump differently? Option one is clearly the only moral and legal choice; anything else is "separate, but equal."
Apex is just a sore loser! If a team doesn't have anyone competing in the high jump, would you score the high jump differently? Option one is clearly the only moral and legal choice; anything else is "separate, but equal."
09/08/2014 11:13:08 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 57
@Chrys That's a bold statement to just flat out call Apex sore losers. Where is the proof in that? I've heard numerous coaches complain about the situation, but none of them were from Apex. I am just curious where your opinion in what you said holds any validity. I also find it odd that your profile was created today and you made the comment you did. It's as if you made a new profile to stay anonymous, but you feel more comfortable to throw out accusations on "he said, she said" type of stuff. I'm not from Apex and not even from the same county, but I just don't think it's fair for you to make that accusation and feed the rumor mill because Apex was in a fortunate/unfortunate situation. Fortunate because they were easily one of the most well-rounded 4A (boys) track schools in the state last spring and unfortunate because they were so talented, yet lost the way that they did. Would you accuse any school who lost the state championship that way a "sore loser" if people started making a big deal about it? It sure seems that way. Hats off to Mount Tabor AND Apex no matter what. They both have amazing programs and showed up at the state meet. Hopefully a final decision can be made about this soon so there will be no more debate or questions.
@Chrys That's a bold statement to just flat out call Apex sore losers. Where is the proof in that? I've heard numerous coaches complain about the situation, but none of them were from Apex. I am just curious where your opinion in what you said holds any validity. I also find it odd that your profile was created today and you made the comment you did. It's as if you made a new profile to stay anonymous, but you feel more comfortable to throw out accusations on "he said, she said" type of stuff. I'm not from Apex and not even from the same county, but I just don't think it's fair for you to make that accusation and feed the rumor mill because Apex was in a fortunate/unfortunate situation. Fortunate because they were easily one of the most well-rounded 4A (boys) track schools in the state last spring and unfortunate because they were so talented, yet lost the way that they did. Would you accuse any school who lost the state championship that way a "sore loser" if people started making a big deal about it? It sure seems that way. Hats off to Mount Tabor AND Apex no matter what. They both have amazing programs and showed up at the state meet. Hopefully a final decision can be made about this soon so there will be no more debate or questions.
09/09/2014 8:23:52 AM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2419
@Chrys I agree with Coach - Apex did not initiate this process in any way. In fact, to my knowledge, NO SCHOOL has petitioned the NCHSAA for changes. The coaches association (rightly) responded to some generalized "grumbling" about a brand-new situation by attempting to gauge the feelings of coaches on this issue. This is NOT an attempt to push through an agenda - it is an attempt to find out IF any changes are needed. For what it's worth, it's clear from the coaches' poll that there is absolutely no consensus among the coaches. 51% want a separate division, but 49% voted against a separate division, and only 53 coaches cared enough to vote (much less than for the jewelry rule).
@Chrys I agree with Coach - Apex did not initiate this process in any way. In fact, to my knowledge, NO SCHOOL has petitioned the NCHSAA for changes. The coaches association (rightly) responded to some generalized "grumbling" about a brand-new situation by attempting to gauge the feelings of coaches on this issue. This is NOT an attempt to push through an agenda - it is an attempt to find out IF any changes are needed. For what it's worth, it's clear from the coaches' poll that there is absolutely no consensus among the coaches. 51% want a separate division, but 49% voted against a separate division, and only 53 coaches cared enough to vote (much less than for the jewelry rule).
09/09/2014 8:58:34 AM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Did anyone lose a scholarship or funding or any other support for their track team due to Mt. Tabor winning a championship with these atheletes being able to participate? Who is on the losing end if Adaptive and Wheelchair athletes are score eaquually for the same team that they train with all season?
Did anyone lose a scholarship or funding or any other support for their track team due to Mt. Tabor winning a championship with these atheletes being able to participate? Who is on the losing end if Adaptive and Wheelchair athletes are score eaquually for the same team that they train with all season?
09/09/2014 10:22:17 AM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 48
@Chrys @CoachGeorgeRJR Yes very bold. I will chose not to comment on the issue, but I will tell you the athletes at Apex were VERY proud of where we finished at the state meet. I will also say about 40-50% of the athletes are in Project UNIFY (a club that works with traditional students and special olympics) who were thrilled to see wheelchair athletes competeing at the state meet.(Including myself, who works in the SPED department at Apex)
@Chrys @CoachGeorgeRJR Yes very bold. I will chose not to comment on the issue, but I will tell you the athletes at Apex were VERY proud of where we finished at the state meet. I will also say about 40-50% of the athletes are in Project UNIFY (a club that works with traditional students and special olympics) who were thrilled to see wheelchair athletes competeing at the state meet.(Including myself, who works in the SPED department at Apex)
09/10/2014 10:59:47 AM
User
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 152
There should be a separate competition for these athletes, because quite simply they are not competing in the same event if they are using a wheelchair rather than running. IPC world records for wheelchair athletes are as follows: 800m: 1:31.2 1500m: 2:54.51 5000m: 9:53.05 Clearly wheelchair athletes have a huge advantage over runners at the top level, its only a matter of time before this manifests itself at the high school level as well. Unless you are going to allow all students to race in wheelchairs if they so choose, there needs to be a separate division.
There should be a separate competition for these athletes, because quite simply they are not competing in the same event if they are using a wheelchair rather than running. IPC world records for wheelchair athletes are as follows:
800m: 1:31.2
1500m: 2:54.51
5000m: 9:53.05

Clearly wheelchair athletes have a huge advantage over runners at the top level, its only a matter of time before this manifests itself at the high school level as well. Unless you are going to allow all students to race in wheelchairs if they so choose, there needs to be a separate division.
09/10/2014 11:50:20 AM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2419
@southkakrun They already compete in separate events. Doesn't that cancel out the advantage you list? They don't compete directly against able-bodied athletes at the same distance, and the performances of adaptive athletes don't go into the records (or into our database) in the same event as able-bodied athletes. When a wheelchair athlete competes in the 100, they compete in a separate Wheelchair 100 Dash, and their times are not compared with or merged with the results from the standard 100 Dash. From a competition standpoint, they are already separated; that isn't the issue up for debate. The issue is whether they can score points for their school team from those already-separate events. The creation of a separate division effectively means that adaptive athletes are part of a separate team from their schoolmates, and are competing for a separate championship than their schoolmates. In many cases, they would even be competing at "their" state meet on a different day than their schoolmates! None of that is required to preserve the integrity of competition in the individual events.
@southkakrun They already compete in separate events. Doesn't that cancel out the advantage you list? They don't compete directly against able-bodied athletes at the same distance, and the performances of adaptive athletes don't go into the records (or into our database) in the same event as able-bodied athletes. When a wheelchair athlete competes in the 100, they compete in a separate Wheelchair 100 Dash, and their times are not compared with or merged with the results from the standard 100 Dash. From a competition standpoint, they are already separated; that isn't the issue up for debate.

The issue is whether they can score points for their school team from those already-separate events. The creation of a separate division effectively means that adaptive athletes are part of a separate team from their schoolmates, and are competing for a separate championship than their schoolmates. In many cases, they would even be competing at "their" state meet on a different day than their schoolmates! None of that is required to preserve the integrity of competition in the individual events.
09/10/2014 12:37:27 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
As a former (mediocre) track and field athlete as well as th parent of a developmentally challenged teenage son, proposing to change the current system is effectively stealth discrimination against young men and woman who are striving to achieve goals while simultaneously surmounting daunting struggles on a daily basis that pale in comparison to those of the rest of us. Appropriate inclusion in activities such as track and field is one way that they can truly be incorporated into the "normal" high school experience, teaching their "normal" peers many valuable lessons about hard work, perseverance, and inclusion in the process. It seems to me that the true challenge falls upon those who, to quote Shakespeare, "doth protesteth too much". The real way to "balance the field" is for all North Carolina high schools to embrace challenged students into their sports programs such that all who are interested can fairly compete against comparable peers. The fact that this was not the case in last year's state meet is not the athletes in question problem. I applaud Coach Cromwell for his untiring advocacy of these fine young men who simply want to involved as any "normal" high schooler would.
As a former (mediocre) track and field athlete as well as th parent of a developmentally challenged teenage son, proposing to change the current system is effectively stealth discrimination against young men and woman who are striving to achieve goals while simultaneously surmounting daunting struggles on a daily basis that pale in comparison to those of the rest of us. Appropriate inclusion in activities such as track and field is one way that they can truly be incorporated into the "normal" high school experience, teaching their "normal" peers many valuable lessons about hard work, perseverance, and inclusion in the process. It seems to me that the true challenge falls upon those who, to quote Shakespeare, "doth protesteth too much". The real way to "balance the field" is for all North Carolina high schools to embrace challenged students into their sports programs such that all who are interested can fairly compete against comparable peers. The fact that this was not the case in last year's state meet is not the athletes in question problem.

I applaud Coach Cromwell for his untiring advocacy of these fine young men who simply want to involved as any "normal" high schooler would.
09/18/2014 1:51:28 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 24
Just as a side note, we can answer as many polls as we like but, can we really address the issue without the voices of the adaptive athlete? Perhaps we could invite some of these athletes to speak and give their thoughts at our coaching clinics.
Just as a side note, we can answer as many polls as we like but, can we really address the issue without the voices of the adaptive athlete? Perhaps we could invite some of these athletes to speak and give their thoughts at our coaching clinics.

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.