Sharing Implements Debate
05/21/2013 12:29:07 PM
User
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
No where in the NFHS or NCHSAA rules does it address that implements are supposed to be available and shared between athletes during a meet. (It is addressed in USATF rules that implements, with the exception of javelins, are to be made sharable during a meet, but USATF meets are not NC high school meets and most often the USATF meets will provide alternate backup implements.) While I appreciate positive sportsmanship, the concept that an athlete must make their personal, expensive, implement available to be shared with other throwers that can damage and/or destroy that implement just makes me angry. It would never be asked of runners and jumpers of their spikes; never of pole vaulters of their poles; so why would anyone think that discus should be required to be shared? Discus have become very expensive and the different rim weights - 70% to 93% - work with different throwing techniques and skills. It's not a "one size fits all". When an athlete shows up without an implement, then the meet should provide them with a rubber discus. It is totally unfair that the NCHSAA officials expect the other athletes to share their personal discus. I bring this up because this was what happened at the NCHSAA 4A State Meet, along with running the preliminary flight as a single flight of 15, and calling the discus marks in 1/2 inch measurements.
No where in the NFHS or NCHSAA rules does it address that implements are supposed to be available and shared between athletes during a meet. (It is addressed in USATF rules that implements, with the exception of javelins, are to be made sharable during a meet, but USATF meets are not NC high school meets and most often the USATF meets will provide alternate backup implements.) While I appreciate positive sportsmanship, the concept that an athlete must make their personal, expensive, implement available to be shared with other throwers that can damage and/or destroy that implement just makes me angry. It would never be asked of runners and jumpers of their spikes; never of pole vaulters of their poles; so why would anyone think that discus should be required to be shared? Discus have become very expensive and the different rim weights - 70% to 93% - work with different throwing techniques and skills. It's not a "one size fits all". When an athlete shows up without an implement, then the meet should provide them with a rubber discus. It is totally unfair that the NCHSAA officials expect the other athletes to share their personal discus.

I bring this up because this was what happened at the NCHSAA 4A State Meet, along with running the preliminary flight as a single flight of 15, and calling the discus marks in 1/2 inch measurements.
05/21/2013 3:14:06 PM
User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 47
I don't really know much about shots or discs...But, sharing them can "damage or destroy" them? Really? I thought those things were made to be thrown long distances through the air and land in the grass...hundreds, even thousands of times. I never knew they were so fragile.
I don't really know much about shots or discs...But, sharing them can "damage or destroy" them? Really? I thought those things were made to be thrown long distances through the air and land in the grass...hundreds, even thousands of times. I never knew they were so fragile.
05/21/2013 3:21:54 PM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2414
@SCXCcoach They can be dropped on concrete by someone who isn't being careful, especially if that someone isn't the owner and doesn't recognize the value of the implement. Many of the highest-level discs use plastic to lighten the body (transferring more weight to the rim), and I have seen them ruined by cracked or shattered plastic. I can attest to the original statements here, as I was present for the start of the girls' discus competition and heard the announcements (including the faulty measurements). Entitled coaches are ruining our sport by refusing to officiate at major competitions. At the start of the event, there were only THREE officials present for the discus, with at least 15 coaches sitting nearby to "coach" their athletes (most of whom never interacted with their kids even once during the competition). The NCHSAA needs to require that each school have a certified official, and also require each school that has even a single athlete make it to the state meet to officiate at some point. We also need to hire trained, independent head officials, but that's a separate issue, and even if we get that done we will still need 30-40 coaches in supporting roles during the meet.
@SCXCcoach They can be dropped on concrete by someone who isn't being careful, especially if that someone isn't the owner and doesn't recognize the value of the implement. Many of the highest-level discs use plastic to lighten the body (transferring more weight to the rim), and I have seen them ruined by cracked or shattered plastic.

I can attest to the original statements here, as I was present for the start of the girls' discus competition and heard the announcements (including the faulty measurements). Entitled coaches are ruining our sport by refusing to officiate at major competitions. At the start of the event, there were only THREE officials present for the discus, with at least 15 coaches sitting nearby to "coach" their athletes (most of whom never interacted with their kids even once during the competition). The NCHSAA needs to require that each school have a certified official, and also require each school that has even a single athlete make it to the state meet to officiate at some point. We also need to hire trained, independent head officials, but that's a separate issue, and even if we get that done we will still need 30-40 coaches in supporting roles during the meet.
05/21/2013 3:35:51 PM
User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 47
Well, if that's the case, then it seems that those who can afford such discs can gain a technological advantage. Which, in turn, means that we don't necessarily see the best thrower win the competition. The winner might be the one with the most and best resources. It is my humble opinion that all throwers should be throwing the same implement. Isn't it that way in the shot put? As for your argument about track officials and coaches officiating at meets...you have no disagreement from me. One would think that the NCHSAA could pony up some cash to pay officials for at least the state meet. They should do that for regionals, too! They charge enough for T-shirts at those events! Perhaps that money could be used to pay officials
Well, if that's the case, then it seems that those who can afford such discs can gain a technological advantage. Which, in turn, means that we don't necessarily see the best thrower win the competition. The winner might be the one with the most and best resources. It is my humble opinion that all throwers should be throwing the same implement. Isn't it that way in the shot put?

As for your argument about track officials and coaches officiating at meets...you have no disagreement from me. One would think that the NCHSAA could pony up some cash to pay officials for at least the state meet. They should do that for regionals, too! They charge enough for T-shirts at those events! Perhaps that money could be used to pay officials
05/21/2013 3:38:38 PM
User
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
@SCXCcoach We've had throwers release the discus too early and slammed the discus into the frame of metal cages, then have it drop down on to hard concrete pad - gouged the rim that the edge would cut a hand. Normal throwing a discus - it lands out in grass, skipping along like a flat rock across water. This season, we attended a college hammer throw meet where an athlete showed up late and without an implement. We were asked to share. Her first throw wrapped the hammer around the metal cage and broke the wire, which we had to pay to replace. Her last throw, she just left the hammer out in the field and didn't kindly return it to its owner. No "thank you" or "sorry". Indoor season - we had a brand new weight throw. At the 2nd meet, it went from being new to being pretty banged up due to another thrower's use. The shot put is about the only implement that's built tough and not much can happen to it. It's the only implement that seems to ever be supplied by a host meet.
@SCXCcoach We've had throwers release the discus too early and slammed the discus into the frame of metal cages, then have it drop down on to hard concrete pad - gouged the rim that the edge would cut a hand. Normal throwing a discus - it lands out in grass, skipping along like a flat rock across water.

This season, we attended a college hammer throw meet where an athlete showed up late and without an implement. We were asked to share. Her first throw wrapped the hammer around the metal cage and broke the wire, which we had to pay to replace. Her last throw, she just left the hammer out in the field and didn't kindly return it to its owner. No "thank you" or "sorry".

Indoor season - we had a brand new weight throw. At the 2nd meet, it went from being new to being pretty banged up due to another thrower's use.

The shot put is about the only implement that's built tough and not much can happen to it. It's the only implement that seems to ever be supplied by a host meet.
05/21/2013 3:42:36 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 49
I am the Head Field Events Judge and I talked to you about the situation. The Games Committee can add rules for a meet in addition to the National Federation and NCHSAA rules which I informed you of at the time. We have done this for the past several state meets and this is the first time that I am aware of that there was an objection. I am not criticizing you for the objection and this is a situation that meet management will discuss for future meets. I did make a commitment to you that I will not reveal here to try to ease your mind about the situation and I would have honored that commitment had that the situation occurred. As for the other issues, (1) all of the participants were on one sheet and the official took that to mean it was to be run in one flight. If the discus sheet been done as a Flight 1 and Flight 2, there would have been no issues. (2) The distances were called out in 1/2 inch inclements until I was made aware of the situation. I went to the judge and we corrected it. The final results did not reflect any 1/2 markings. The judge in question is a long time friend who is a 3A coach. He volunteered to help us with the 4A meet. He easily could have taken the weekend off or come to the meet as a spectator. With the rain delay, that coach and the others that were working were out there over four hours. As the Head Field Events Judge and a former state meet director, I work with Coach Lassiter to get the best officials possible to run the events. Being an event judge at the state meet can be a thankless job. These officials, most of who are coaches, are rarely praised to doing a good job, but are routinely criticized if something is not exactly right. These coaches give up an opportunity to "coach" on that day in order to help run the meet. Coaches as officials has been criticized for as long as I have been coaching (35 years). Until the NCHSAA dramatically increases the budget for state meets to include paid officials at all venues or at least for head event officials, we will have to officiate these meets. I am proud of the work the field officials and the other meet officials did on Saturday. Were there some mistakes, yes, but overall the officials did a good job. We had several events where enough coaches did not sign up to work or some did not show and we had to recruit officials at the last minute. Thanks to all of those coaches who stepped up and worked on short notice. Also thanks to the USATF officials who worked the meet, but several of them are also coaches. The last time I "coached" at a state meet was almost 20 years ago. I have gladly worked these meets in every capacity from an assistant clerk to Meet Director in order to put on the best event for your athletes possible. We have some coaches that we can count on every single year, you know who you are and know that we could not put on the state meet without you. Has anyone that is quick to criticize thought what would happen if that group of coaches who help to officiate the state meet every single year or the ones who have to step up at the last minute decided not to work and "coach" that day? We would still be at A & T waiting for the meet to start.
I am the Head Field Events Judge and I talked to you about the situation. The Games Committee can add rules for a meet in addition to the National Federation and NCHSAA rules which I informed you of at the time. We have done this for the past several state meets and this is the first time that I am aware of that there was an objection. I am not criticizing you for the objection and this is a situation that meet management will discuss for future meets. I did make a commitment to you that I will not reveal here to try to ease your mind about the situation and I would have honored that commitment had that the situation occurred. As for the other issues, (1) all of the participants were on one sheet and the official took that to mean it was to be run in one flight. If the discus sheet been done as a Flight 1 and Flight 2, there would have been no issues. (2) The distances were called out in 1/2 inch inclements until I was made aware of the situation. I went to the judge and we corrected it. The final results did not reflect any 1/2 markings.
The judge in question is a long time friend who is a 3A coach. He volunteered to help us with the 4A meet. He easily could have taken the weekend off or come to the meet as a spectator. With the rain delay, that coach and the others that were working were out there over four hours. As the Head Field Events Judge and a former state meet director, I work with Coach Lassiter to get the best officials possible to run the events. Being an event judge at the state meet can be a thankless job. These officials, most of who are coaches, are rarely praised to doing a good job, but are routinely criticized if something is not exactly right. These coaches give up an opportunity to "coach" on that day in order to help run the meet. Coaches as officials has been criticized for as long as I have been coaching (35 years). Until the NCHSAA dramatically increases the budget for state meets to include paid officials at all venues or at least for head event officials, we will have to officiate these meets. I am proud of the work the field officials and the other meet officials did on Saturday. Were there some mistakes, yes, but overall the officials did a good job. We had several events where enough coaches did not sign up to work or some did not show and we had to recruit officials at the last minute. Thanks to all of those coaches who stepped up and worked on short notice. Also thanks to the USATF officials who worked the meet, but several of them are also coaches. The last time I "coached" at a state meet was almost 20 years ago. I have gladly worked these meets in every capacity from an assistant clerk to Meet Director in order to put on the best event for your athletes possible. We have some coaches that we can count on every single year, you know who you are and know that we could not put on the state meet without you. Has anyone that is quick to criticize thought what would happen if that group of coaches who help to officiate the state meet every single year or the ones who have to step up at the last minute decided not to work and "coach" that day? We would still be at A & T waiting for the meet to start.
05/21/2013 4:13:14 PM
User
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
@coachtyre Why was there even a need to create this stipulation of requiring athletes to share discus? Coming to the State Meet, athletes should bring an implement or the host team/NCHSAA could provide 1 discus to use "just in case". Can you imagine a pole vaulter arriving without any pole? Or a runner arriving without any spikes or sneakers? This practice at the State Meet should have been brought to light before now. The boys discus was run in 2 flights. Was their heat sheet any different? As for volunteering, our team did step up and had coaches volunteer at the last minute to officiate other events.
@coachtyre Why was there even a need to create this stipulation of requiring athletes to share discus? Coming to the State Meet, athletes should bring an implement or the host team/NCHSAA could provide 1 discus to use "just in case". Can you imagine a pole vaulter arriving without any pole? Or a runner arriving without any spikes or sneakers? This practice at the State Meet should have been brought to light before now.

The boys discus was run in 2 flights. Was their heat sheet any different?

As for volunteering, our team did step up and had coaches volunteer at the last minute to officiate other events.
05/21/2013 5:22:32 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 49
Thank you and your school for stepping up to help. My comments on all those who stepped up to help applied to any school, including yours. As I stated earlier, this was not new, it was the first time I was aware it became an issue and now that it has, it will be addressed by meet management for future meets. In my earlier post, I failed to mention that I also weighed the implements and I don't recall any of the athletes that did not have their own discus or in some cases two or three discuses (metal/plastic). As to the Boys Discus, we did do it in two flights and if we could do it over, we would do the girls in two also. It was an honest mistake. I was moving from field event to field event for several hours during the meet and I apologize and take responsibility for any errors. Remember that we are human and none of my officials were trying to do anything unethical. If you want to talk further on the sharing of implements I invite you to email me at coachtyre@hotmail.com.
Thank you and your school for stepping up to help. My comments on all those who stepped up to help applied to any school, including yours. As I stated earlier, this was not new, it was the first time I was aware it became an issue and now that it has, it will be addressed by meet management for future meets. In my earlier post, I failed to mention that I also weighed the implements and I don't recall any of the athletes that did not have their own discus or in some cases two or three discuses (metal/plastic). As to the Boys Discus, we did do it in two flights and if we could do it over, we would do the girls in two also. It was an honest mistake. I was moving from field event to field event for several hours during the meet and I apologize and take responsibility for any errors. Remember that we are human and none of my officials were trying to do anything unethical. If you want to talk further on the sharing of implements I invite you to email me at coachtyre@hotmail.com.
05/21/2013 10:51:06 PM
User
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
@coachtyre Just to correct something - I never spoke to you at the State Meet. Other people equally had concerns with the "implements are shareable" statement and someone spoke to you, but it wasn't me. This same thing happened last year, same concerns were raised with the discus official, and the same thing happened again this year. I did speak to the discus official that 15 in a single flight was a large number and normally should be run in two flights, but nothing was done about it. Other people equally had concerns about that, and word spread during the girls discus that the boys discus would definitely be run with 2 flights. This isn't criticizing. This is stating facts to raise awareness so that changes can be made for the better.
@coachtyre Just to correct something - I never spoke to you at the State Meet. Other people equally had concerns with the "implements are shareable" statement and someone spoke to you, but it wasn't me. This same thing happened last year, same concerns were raised with the discus official, and the same thing happened again this year.

I did speak to the discus official that 15 in a single flight was a large number and normally should be run in two flights, but nothing was done about it. Other people equally had concerns about that, and word spread during the girls discus that the boys discus would definitely be run with 2 flights.

This isn't criticizing. This is stating facts to raise awareness so that changes can be made for the better.
05/22/2013 9:07:04 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 34
@SCXCcoach just because the disc is more expensive doesn't give the thrower a technical advantage. The more expensive disc usually are made for more technical(better) throwers. If someone who can't put a lot of spin uses the more expensive(usually high spin disc) they don't get a advantage. It actually makes them throw worse. I totally agree with not sharing disc. It makes me cringe when someone grabs a $250 disc and clangs it off the cage and it lands back on the pad. Hopefully this practice of sharing disc at all meets, not just the state meet, will end.
@SCXCcoach just because the disc is more expensive doesn't give the thrower a technical advantage. The more expensive disc usually are made for more technical(better) throwers. If someone who can't put a lot of spin uses the more expensive(usually high spin disc) they don't get a advantage. It actually makes them throw worse. I totally agree with not sharing disc. It makes me cringe when someone grabs a $250 disc and clangs it off the cage and it lands back on the pad. Hopefully this practice of sharing disc at all meets, not just the state meet, will end.

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.