The top 3 times in the 4A boys 55m dash have not been converted to FAT.
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Waddell I saw that, but didn't have time to get in there and fix it. Right now, coaches can enter their updated marks by hand, so there will have to be some corrections made. I will start ironing those out tonight in the hope of getting everything fully accurate by Sunday.
Interesting...some kids are entered in 6 events.
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CoachGeorgeRJR
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know that times could be put in by hand.
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gdduncan they should be entered in any event they qualified for that they would possibly compete in. Obviously they will have to choose what to compete in but not before Sat.
If there are athletes entered in more than 4 individual events when the entries close, those athletes should be removed from all events by meet management .
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Elgin Why? There's no rule against ENTERING more than four events. The rule says you can't COMPETE in more than four events. It's a coach's right to wait and see what the fields are going to be like, and then select events. I think that's especially true if two of the events are relays, and the athlete in question might just be listed as an alternate.
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CoachGeorgeRJR
I don't have the meet rules handy, and I guess the real rule is the main issue. There is no question the official rule book anticipates the possibility of entering more than four events when relays are included, but does it actually allow an athlete to enter more
individual events than the individual limit?
Going by logic, rather than the particular rules for this meet, if you can enter an athlete in more than four individual events and then decide after you see the entries which events to compete in, you should also be able to enter more than three athletes in an event and then decide after entries close which athletes will compete. I am aware that the entry system won't allow this, and that the rules do not allow a school to enter more than three athletes in an event, but this is not logically different than exceeding the event limits for an athlete. The rules for these two situations should be brought into alignment with each other. Either your entries should have to comply with ALL the competition rules, or you can get into compliance by scratching before the meet, or you just have to comply based on who reports to the clerk to check-in for events. But it should not be one thing for one rule, and another thing for a different rule.
Our 4x400 mens relay time was incorrect when first sent in. Coach Tyre HAS senT in a corrected time from our last chance meet Wednesday. When will that correction show on our entry time?
Thanks
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plegnetti You would have to correct it yourself. Go into the entry process and "uncheck" the relay, save it, then check them again (re-enter them, in other words). It will automatically update. I have been cross-checking many of the entries and have updated some myself, but I can't be trusted to catch every one! :)
thanks coach, did what you said old time keeps coming back so i changed the time in the box and listed the meet so you can verify
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plegnetti Hmm. I'll check on that. It could be that I missed something on my end.
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CoachGeorgeRJR
Rule book says you cannot enter more than 4 events excluding relays. Meet management shall scratch the athlete from the excess events, not all events as I stated earlier.
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Elgin I stand corrected. Still, since the entries haven't closed yet, we can hope that coaches will trim down any excess events.
Just to throw some salt in the game....I feel that entries should not be capped at 3 per event....ex. school "A" has 4 milers that run LEGITIMATELY under the 1600 qualifying time; school "B" has 4 throwers that have thrown past the SP standard; school "C" has 4 sprinters that have run faster than the 200 meter standard....why should they be penalized and restricted to only three athletes? IF the kids have legitimately done the performances; why can't they compete....just something to consider.
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MackFHS I completely agree. We have four guys qualified in the 3200. I feel bad that one of them won't get to run. If they hit the qualifying mark, they deserve to be in the State Championship.
What if one of the three gets sick this week and is unable to run? The fourth qualifier should be allowed to take his place, but under the current system he'd still be out of luck.
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Lehman
The NFHS rules set a limit of 3 contestants from a school in each event when 4 or more schools are involved in the meet.
If there are 3 schools involved in the meet, the limit is 4 contestants from a school.
Conference, league, or state association rules can override these limits.
I don't think that a games committee is granted the authority to change this.
Only in dual meets can a school enter more than 3 or 4 contestants in an event.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no indoor state qualifier in NC should have qualified in a race with more than 2 other teammates entered in that event unless a conference rule allowed it.
If we want to change this we need to have written rules within our conferences (some may) and/or our state association.
davidculp@
Lehman
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no indoor state qualifier in NC should have qualified in a race with more than 2 other teammates entered in that event unless a conference rule allowed it.
@davidculp I believe the four runners that Coach Lehman is talking about ran qualifying times in different races, 2 in one race and 2 in another in which both races only had 3 total team runners entered, per the rules you have stated. Specifically, two of them ran qualifying times today, in a race that the other two, that had already ran qualifying times, did not run in.
Obviously, though, only 3 of these 4 runners have actually could be entered in the state championship meet, thus his comment that one had to be left out.
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HWPixHend
point taken, I understand that.... perhaps I should have stated:
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but no indoor state entrant in NC should have qualified in a given race with more than 2 other teammates entered in that same race (at that particular meet when they hit the qualifying standard) unless a conference rule allowed it."
It is not unheard of to have more than 3 state qualifiers in an event from a given school ... or 3 regional qualifiers during outdoor season. Still only 3 can be entered into the state (or outdoor regional) meet.
We have often had more than 3 qualifiers in an event and it is unfortuante for the 4th or 5th ... qualifying athlete that they cannot advance to a championship race. But I personally feel that the limit of 3 per school at this level of competition is reasonable and, regardless, it is the rule for any meet with 4 or more schools participating.
I think it's ridiculous that any would waste time trying to punish kids for being talented enough to qualify in more than 4 individual events. Everyone understands that they can only actually compete in 4 events including relays, so what's the big deal. So what, they choose on the day of the meet based on the entries. The athletes put in the work on the track all season, so maybe they should be given some leeway.
Maybe, spending time trying to penalize kids for excelling isn't the best way focusing a person's attention. Shouldn't the effort be to find a way to include kids who qualify if for no other reason than competition than to spend so much effort trying to exclude kids who have run qualifying times? Sure, "rules are rules", but who does it benefit to disqualify kids who work hard to qualify?
The rule on entry limits is clear. Whether I agree with the rule or not is irrelevant. Perhaps there is a valid a reason for this rule. Utilizing the tactic of entering more athletes than allowed interferes with lane and heat assignment. This affects other athletes. Will heats be redrawn at the moment an athlete decides not to run? Do we really want races with open lanes? The entry deadline has passed. The entry rules are clear. We should have a valid performance list based on the entry rules.
I don't think anybody is trying to "punish" or "penalize" any athletes. High school athletes and coaches are bound by the rules set by the NFHS and the NCHSAA.
We can lobby to change the rules though. The rule book (rule 4-2-4) clearly states that a state association, conference or league can alter the entry limit. For example, the state of Texas permits two scoring relays per school in their state meet series. I believe the NCHSAA has the ability to change the number of qualifiers per school in conference and state competitions. But I am sure the NCHSAA has to look at equality issues of both the individual and the member schools.
I personally would like to see it changed so that if an athlete meets the standard they would be permitted to compete.
Other levels of track and field operate perfectly well without limits on how many individuals or teams can be entered into an event. I think that 3 athletes was set years ago as a fair number and because at the Olympic level you can only have three participants in an event to stop one nation (USA; at that time )from dominating the Games or a particular event. Think that's why it came about; however, in the cases of local high schools; if we should be blessed with more than 3 athletes gifted enough to meet the qualifying standards of an event; I feel, that they should be allowed to compete; and I propose that if some of the other coaches feel that way; we should submit this as a proposal to the NCHSAA.
Allow me to further illustrate why; we, as coaches, should be progressive and open-minded enough to try and change arbitrary rules that basically penalize our athletes for no good reason: Ex.1-in the 1980's (before the Internet) I was lucky enough to have 4 triple jumpers that had jumped further than the (at that time) Sectional qualifying standard of 43 ft. I told them; as I do now, that the tape measure was the determiner of who would go on-top three jump. Needless; to say, the conference triple jump was really intense! The kids understood and agreed that that was the fair way; but, in the end I had three happy kids and one sad one who's high school season was over unneccessarily. Oh, and yes , we did have 4 participants per school in our conference meet at that time (the coaches voted on it-it was in the conference rules). Ex.2-In the Jr. High days in our county (before they were turned into Middle Schools) there were basically 2 Jr. Hi's that dominated track....so, the coaches decided; by vote, to limit the participation in the Conference meet to 2 participants per school; for "fairness" . Well, that was 30 years ago and now; some of the middle school coaches, limit participation on their teams to 2 individuals per event and basically wind up running kids off BECAUSE the kids think that that is the way it is in high school; they're not good enough, etc.; if you've ever dealt with middle schoolers; you understand, and the coaches, thinking that the rule was engraved in stone, won't change it. My point is that surely, we was college-educated people, can have an intelligent open-debate and if we reach a consensus, submit a proposal to at the NCHSAA to change or amend a rule that can actually help us out in the long run; encourage participation, and, in the final analysis, work itself out on the track anyway. It won't rolong meets or anything; it'll just let our kids; who this is for anway, participate. That's all. Thanks.
I think it is amazing how contrary and short-sighted some of us can be. The limit actually allows for GREATER PARTICIPATION among schools. For example, three years ago I was blessed to have six young ladies who could all go below 60s in the 400m, and 26s or faster in the 200m. According to you good people, I should have enter all six in both those events at the outdoor regional. We would have swept all six places in the 400m and 4 out of six in the 200m, sending four to the state meet in the 4 and at least 3 in the 200m. This in turn, would have given our team a competitive advantage at the state meet, leaving out very deserving young ladies who could have competed for their teams in the regional and state meets.
Guys, I am all for athletes; however, as coaches, we are charged with helping athletes maximize their talents, often for the betterment of the team. On that team, we created pretty good 4x800, 4x200 and 4x400m relays that all won regional titles and two of which won state titles (setting the state meet record in the 4x4). I also asked the baby of the bunch to run 300 hurdles that year (yes, I planned ahead!) -- she won a state title as a freshmen and (against her original wishes) is one of the best hurdlers in the state now. Another is one of the best triple jumpers in the state right now. My point is, if you know the rules and live by the rules instead of constantly trying to question and change the rules, good things can happen for the athletes, the team and you as coaches.
There is a way to change any rule that can be changed. As a board member for the NCTCCCA, we listen to our constituents and try to convince the NCHSAA to act accordingly. Currently, the board is trying to change the outdoor state meet to inclued timed finals in the 200, 300h, and 400. This came directly from the coaches who said their athletes were being overburdened with prelims and were not available to run relays (Hey, I don't get it, but that's what they said). The board has yet to present the proposal to the NCHSAA because only 15% of coaches have given their vote on the proposal! That is to say, get off the forums stating your opionions behind a screen name!! Contact your regional NCTCCCA board member and let them know how you vote!. Dont' know your representative?
www.nctccca.org.
I don't understand how some runners in the girls 300 go into the state meet with a time that was over the 44.0 in the 1a/2a/3a meet? I had a girl who was just .2 away from hitting the standard in the 500 and she did not qualify?
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ukjayd10 They ran 43.9 or 44.0, but when you have a list that combines both hand times and FAT, the rule book says you must add 0.24 to the hand times. This allows for fairer seeding of the races, since hand times are almost invariably faster than FAT (just watch the times put up by hand-timed runners when they get to the state meet). Therefore, a time of 44.14 or 44.24 is a converted hand time of 43.9 or 44.0.
Since a hand time of 44.0 is considered the same as an FAT time of 44.24, then it wouldn't be fair to exclude FAT times between 44.00 and 44.24 (those times are very likely faster than a 44.0). Thus, when you have a standard that is geared to hand times, like the 44,0 for the girls 300, the effective FAT standard is 44.24.
Just looking at the pictures from Boston on NC Prep. In photo 7, the runner is within the exchange zone but in the infield when he hands the baton off. Is that legal? Just want to know for future.
Still waiting for the Page relay time to be corrected.
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plegnetti Coach, remind me which meet that was again. I'm having a hard time finding the updated mark. You can contact Chris Lassiter directly to make the change as well, as I have handed off the meets to their respective directors.
Thanks for the reply regarding the reason a girl qualified for an event even though they ran slower than the standard. I have a runner that ran Saturday with a 124.2 in the 500 which wast FAT timed should she have qualified?
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ukjayd10 By writing "1:24.2" I assume it was a hand time from outdoors? If so, it is definitely not a qualifier. If it was an FAT time of 1:24.20, then you have an argument. I can tell you this: I only applied conversions to the 55 and 300 this winter (it will be everything 400 and down in the spring). The difference between a hand time and an FAT time is huge in the 55, but it is negligible in the 3200 (especially in light of the different track sizes involved, which have a much bigger effect on performance). It just makes things much simpler to have one standard for the longer events, rather than separate indoor/outdoor or FAT/hand standards. Could you put the 500 in with the 300 and the 55 and apply conversions? Certainly, just as you could call it the "500 Dash" when technically the term "run" is generally applied to events above 400.
In short, if that was an FAT time, you could make your argument to the meet director.
ukjayd10Thanks for the reply regarding the reason a girl qualified for an event even though they ran slower than the standard. I have a runner that ran Saturday with a 124.2 in the 500 which wast FAT timed should she have qualified?
@ukjayd10 That athlete does not qualify for the state meet by either standard (and they are the same for indoors and outdoors). By your logic, there were two young ladies who finished 1:24.19 and 1:24.21 (both times FAT) on Saturday and they should be entered. There was also a 1:24.35 the previous week that should also qualify (It's close enough, isn't it?).
The standard is 1:24.00 and below (not 1:24.00 and anything close!). Why have a standard if we are not going to adhere to it?
I understand the comments however how do you justify 4 girls getting in the 300 with time above 44.0?
My comments regarding my runner running a 124.2 and not qualifying is in regard to CoachGoergeRJR's comment about allowing girls who ran a 44.2 in the 300 to qualify. I am just a little confused? If the qualifying time for the 300 is 44.0 should that be the cut off? Please look at this earlier post.
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coach_eazy The standard is 1:24.0, not 1:24.00. Where the standards are listed only to the tenths place, doesn't that imply that they are hand-timed standards? Therefore, we should be accepting FAT times up to 1:24.24. Someone who runs 1:24.21FAT is FASTER than someone who runs 1:24.0 HT, so why wouldn't we accept the 1:24.21FAT?
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ukjayd10
I was thinking the same thing about the 4A Boys 300. Why is 35.9 used both in inside and outside meets if the outside meet will be given the additional .24? That should make a 36.14 qualifying on an indoor track.
I agree which is why I am trying to get my runner who ran the 124.21 in the meet. Who do I contact about this?
